Bianca and Sumitra from Raygun join the panel to talk about Core Web Vitals and how tools like Raygun can help keep tabs on and monitor your performance stats as you change your web application to get you better results on Google.

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CHUCK: [Music] Hey everybody welcome back to another episode of the

JavaScript jabber this week on our panel we have AJ O'Neal

 

AJ O’NEAL: yo yo yo coming at you live from the Darko sphere

 

DAN: I mean I always amuses me that you need to remember where you're coming from

 

AJ O’NEAL: well I have to make it up half the time

 

CHUCK: we also have Amy Knight

AMY: hey hey from Nashville

 

CHUCK: Steve Edwards

 

STEVE: Hey Hey Kevin from Arlington Virginia in a very tiny booth in an office building

 

CHUCK: Oh that's new yeah Dan shapir

 

DAN: I'm from hot and humid Tel Aviv

 

CHUCK: I'm Charles maxwood from devchat.tv and this week we have a couple of special guests we have Bianca oh I didn't even ask how to say your last name is it grigar something like that

 

BIANCA: best not to say it it's usually my advice

 

CHUCK: oh awesome and we also have sumitra it says M on here but yeah both of you do you want to introduce yourselves tell us where you're from why you're awesome why you're famous

 

SUMITRA: again yeah introduce myself so I'm snitra I'm an intermediate software engineer at Reagan I've been at raygun for just over a couple years now um it's actually my first job in the cake industry I swear I started my whole career from intern to intermediate from where I am today I have been working in the public site space for reaganregan.com including acting research and also looking into our Corey vital metrics and seeing where our blog currently stands and what improves weak and actually make on our blog these days I'm actually more focused on the application side of ray gun though so my primary focus has been working more on the front end in terms of react and taste type script and also just general fronting space I love a good CSS challenge as well I really love my CSS I've always had a little bit of design side of me but more recently I've actually been working on a product feature called alerting which has a focus around smart alerts for coreware Vital metrics it's me

 

CHUCK: awesome how about you Bianca

 

BIANCA: um

 

STEVE: I was going to say that's the first time I've heard the term intermediate engineer I was here junior and Sierra senior I don't hear intermediate too often maybe it's just me but I thought that was interesting

 

SUMITRA: interesting

 

CHUCK: yeah I think that's when you're flying below the radar but above the trees something like that yeah

 

STEVE: that's a good one need to remember that

 

CHUCK: all right Bianca go ahead and introduce yourself

 

BIANCA: yes hi sir hello from Wellington New Zealand it is insanely early in the morning for us here so bear with us if we kind of have momentarily breaks to have some more coffee although I probably shouldn't have any more coffee I was just saying to Dan earlier it's it's really good to have symmetra with me here this morning you had an episode recently about bringing more women onto the stage highlighting the women in Tech and now we have two talking about technology today it's kind of a rare occurrence for me too so on some of the episodes you did a more extended interest of yourself and I really enjoyed that and they all seem to be involving like a bit of a personal history of coding and since I'm a product manager I have to get my street cred by giving you mine and so I started writing code in 86 writing basic on a computer that my dad brought home from work and and had hooked up to the TV and I really enjoyed that as a child and so I picked up a range of obscure languages in school like two of the Pascal and prologue and scheme and those kind of things but I remember our teacher came to us one day and said there's this news thing called Java and I don't know how it works how about you learn it and then teach me and so this enabled me yet to

 

DAN: I have to say that that's a great teacher that's an awesome way to get the student engaged

 

BIANCA: it really was yeah and then it was and it was one way of learning and also it enabled me to get this uh really highly paid jobs building really shitty websites in HTML and JavaScript so the good old days of the internet bubble where I was earning more money than my mum when I was still in school so and my mom was a doctor at the time and yeah so when those days are over I went on to study artificial intelligence unfortunately before it was really cool and there were tons of jobs so the languages that I'm really most familiar with were things like Python and R and math labs and and all sorts of academic things so I always really enjoyed the process of turning an idea into reality so kind of doing the end-to-end planning of all steps and so it's kind of unsurprising that I ended up doing product management I've been doing that in various forms for the last 15 years and have hardly coded at all but still really really enjoy working with engineers and I joined Reagan at the beginning of this year so I haven't been with her again for very long but I found it to be the kind of perfect combination of a very technical product that's very much based in data and in a market that is very interesting and full of opportunities to grow so that's me

 

DAN: that's awesome Bianca thank you very much for sharing that really

 

CHUCK: did you work your tail off to get that senior developer gig just to realize that senior Dev doesn't actually mean dream job I've been there too my first senior developer job was at a place where all of our triumphs were the bosses and all the failures were ours the second one was a great place to continue to learn and grow only for it to go under due to poor management and now I get job offers from great places to work all the time not only that but the last job interview I actually sat in was a discussion about how much my podcast had helped the people interviewing me if you're looking for a way to get into your dream job then join our Dev Heroes accelerator not only will we help you get the kind of exposure that makes you attractive to your dream employer but you'll be able to ask them for top dollar as well check it out at Dev Heroes accelerator.com

 

CHUCK: yep now I'm intimidated we've got these ladies that are way smarter than I am

 

BIANCA: mission accomplished

 

CHUCK: yeah I'm really excited for this too just from the standpoint of a couple of things one is is that we've been talking to JD who's the CEO of ray gun off and on over the years on JavaScript jabber and and just kind of personally beyond that also been talking to Andre who also works over there about some of the stuff you all have been doing with core web vitals and then we've put together a couple of episodes about four web vitals and so I'm interested to see what you all are doing to kind of go deeper on this topic so kind of in the interest of not rehashing a whole bunch of stuff that we've kind of already talked over I kind of want to see if Dan and if you can kind of give us kind of an overview of what we've talked about so far in just a

couple of minutes and then we can kind of delve into some of the stuff that we we haven't gone as deep on and talk about some of the stuff that that Ray Gun has that can help us I I guess knock this stuff out right

 

DAN: yeah for sure I'd be happy to so uh yeah we did we have had a couple of episodes about this topic and it's not really surprising because Google has really pushed this front and center the web world and it's affecting a lot of people it's like really hot topic right now we are recording this at the beginning of August this is essentially in the middle of Google rolling out an update that causes core web vitals to be used as a ranking signal within Google search so if you get really good cover vitals it can actually give you a boost in terms of your ranking and obviously that's got a lot of people very interested and excited about this essentially core vitals are three metrics that are used to gauge the the performance and the experience of of a website around mostly around the loading part of the experience the three are largest contentful paint or LCP for short which stands for when relative to the beginning of the session the largest contentful item which can be either an image or a block of text is is displayed the next one is first input delay or FID which is also measured in milliseconds but this one is from the the first time that the visitor interacts with the page an interaction could be a mouse click or a key press not panning and zooming those don't count as interactions so it measures the time from that interaction until the code that's associated with that interaction either built-in functionality in the browser or JavaScript that's associated with the event can run and the last one is CLS or cumulative layout shift and that measures how much things jump around that one actually isn't measured in in time units it's essentially just a number it's unitless but you can think of it as looking at or measuring the amount of shifts that or movements that content has in inside the display not as a result of user interactions so if the content moves on its own common example maybe is that an ad loads and then pushes the rest of the content down and causes you the inconvenience of losing where you were in the taxes in the middle of reading it which is really annoying so these are the three metrics and they're supposed to measure the quality like I said of the of the page load and Page rendering and like I said Google is starting to use them as as a ranking signal and also you know in general when a page is loads quickly and is Pleasant to use then it usually has a really positive impact on on engagement reduces bounce rate stuff like that so it's not just Google it's it's stuff in general and just to finish my Spiel we like you said we did have a couple of episodes about it so we had Rick vistomi from Google the guy who runs the Crux database which we can talk about later on talking about how Google collects this information from user sessions we had Martin split also from Google who was talking about Google search and SEO and also explained how Google actually uses this information as I'm mentioned as a ranking signal and finally we had an episode with me where I talked in a lot more detail about what these metrics are and what they actually measure and the ups and downs of them and we can post links to all these episodes and now we can hand over to our guests I would like to begin by learning more about raygun and what raygun does and what it offers because I think our discussion is in the context of what Reagan does to

help with improving core web vitals

 

BIANCA: yeah sure thanks for that summary that was uh great and actually you picked up a really interesting thing at the beginning saying cool vitals are now something that's recognized as if you improve them you can get a boost in your search rankings which is quite a change from how it was announced initially where Google was talking about penalizing websites that weren't doing this so it's been really interesting to see how the conversation about it changed and that's uh very much what we're trying to do here building up on these episodes that you had with other guests already we particularly enjoyed the one with Rick's Rick where he's talking about the cracks data set and uh so I'd like to start with a couple of points from that where that were really interesting for us and a really great kind of confirmation we were going into the right direction with how we're implementing these metrics in Reagan so he was talking about the cracks data set being Google's field data not being a replacement for a real user monitoring tool and instead always making sure you've got your own field data about your own customers and you're using a real user managing tool that measures callback writers the same way that kind of Google does so you actually have a way to compare and track the data in the same way so it rick also said one thing and I'm sure he doesn't didn't quite mean it that kind of drastically but it really stuck with me because he he mentioned and that to him or to Google it doesn't matter if you've got an FID say that it's 100 or 1200 milliseconds because all that matters is that you're under that good threshold that threshold set by Google the passing kind of value that you need to not be penalized to get that boost in in search rankings and of course that doesn't sit well with me because For Us customer experience matters overall and we want to know exactly what kind of experience your customers are having and also want to know exactly who they are which is the the kind of other big point that I'm going to be talking to

 

DAN: yeah just to interrupt and to be fair towards uh Rick yeah you're correct in that Google really puts the the score in these three buckets of either good needs Improvement or poor and then they don't really like distinguish like once you're good you're good and that's it or if you're poor then and you get the maximum boost and if you're poor then you don't get any boost then it doesn't really matter if you're slightly poor or very poor it is important to note that Rick made his comment specifically in the context of the the ranking signal and not the actual experience of the people on the page and in that regard I totally agree with what you said that it might not make a difference for Google or so much or at all but it can definitely make a difference for your visitors and for your engagement and I just do want to add that they did afterwards clarify that once you're in the needs Improvement range you do get a gradually increasing score so uh but that that just came out this information came out after that interview with Rick so so yeah

 

BIANCA: yeah and it very much shows that this is kind of like still an ongoing thing right and like I said the conversation about it it's still kind of developing and it's it's definitely developing in the right direction for the way that we look at things at at Reagan because our point when we started this project of implementing covert viruses adding them to our suite of performance measuring and tracking was who who are we optimizing for how much should we focus focus on Covert vitals because it's not just about passing these thresholds yes that's important but we want to optimize for what we want to help our customers optimize for their customers and not for this Google data set because while there's really good field totally a good Benchmark it's not 100 representative of of the customer groups so that was a very long-winded answer to coming to talking about Reagan itself and giving you a quick quick introduction

 

CHUCK: can I chime in here real quick

 

BIANCA: sure

 

CHUCK: because one thing that Ifound just you know over the last what 15 years that I've been a web developer is that a lot of the business folks that that I talk to they tend to pick up some of these metrics that they care about right and so if they're looking at anything related to core web vitals they're going to care about which band in the okay needs Improvement you know whatever that Google puts us in or not right and so they may care about which strata we're in with Google right and so that may be the only thing they care about because they're just really focused on our web ranking you know and whether or not we're being boosted or penalized whereas Others May really actually care about okay what is the user experience and how does that translate to the bottom line and what what other implications does it have and so when we're talking about this I think it's important like I kind of want to set the stage for Ray Gun a little bit and set the stage for Crux and some of the other tools that Google gives you as well well you have to understand what your stakeholders want and what they care about and so if all they care about is your Google ranking then the Google tools are going to be your primary source of information because that's all they're going to be looking at

 

DAN: uh actually I apologize to interrupting Chuck but I actually disagree I think that even if you're looking if you're focusing primarily on the Google ranking the Google tools have some significant limitations which were actually discussed by by Rick so and I think Bianca was actually absolutely correct at the very beginning when she said that even if you're focusing primarily on that probably you shouldn't but even if you're focusing primarily on that then having a tool that gives you more detailed field information can be extremely useful

 

CHUCK: okay yeah that's fair but my point is is you do need to understand what your stakeholders want right

 

DAN: oh yeah absolutely

 

BIANCA: and you need to you need to have those men metrics but to provide you that context that you are asking for so we Reagan is about enabling developers to deliver these really great experiences to their customers to build software that is a

joy to use right and so we do that in a variety of different ways it's it's about this instant visibility to what's going on in your software but it is also very much about actionable insights and this is where it's coming to this point that we were just discussing is yes you can read the metrics but you can do a lot more because we've built our tools to be based in a workflow so it's about monitoring detecting diagnosing and resolving those issues not just about reporting a metric yes you can do that as well absolutely and you're right like sometimes that's all that needs but we really want to enable our users our customers to be pinpointing those issues that impact the groups of users that they care about the most most and and also manage that workflow of fixing the issue and then measuring if it worked so we do that by having error logging connected with server-side performance measuring but primarily um in this case of core tells us about real user monitoring and so for us cover vitals when they announced it was fantastic because we are already customer Centric this switch to being more customer-centric and not you know search engine optimization Centric make total sense for us and we we have this fantastic tool where we can actually provide all of this granular data that for privacy reasons and for other reasons you cannot get through the Google tools and you can really kind of drill down into session level detail we don't sample all of our data in reuser monitoring it goes two months back so data retention of two months so in

parallel with these Google tools you can really go ahead and figure out okay what is happening for this specific groups of uses for a specific metric and how would I go about you know addressing those issues and fixing them

 

DAN: so to better understand what exactly you're you're providing if I want to use raygun in my website I guess I need to embed some of your code within my website like add a script tag or something like that how how do I actually integrate Your solution into the website itself

BIANCA: it's a beetro I'll let you speak to you

 

SUMITRA: so with Raya it's really easy to set up you usually for type of JavaScript we do actually support quite a few languages but for JavaScript specifically you just get like a code snipper um when you are setting up and you just put that into your code base and you have to of course call a few methods just to get Ram enabled and then once you've got traffic piping through ray gun just fills in your dashboard with all these metrics that's really easy to set up I've set it up before and it's yeah really simple you don't have to do much when you have Frameworks such as react you can download packages that actually support the specific language you want to be or the specific framework so that you don't catch errors that are kind of more related to the library rather than your code itself yeah so really easy and simple to set up

 

DAN: and the data itself is that usually collected onto your own servers so it's kind of a service that you're offering and then I I access the data on your servers via the dashboard

 

SUMITRA: yeah yeah that's the one and you are and can complete control of what you send to us as well so if there is like Pia data for example that you don't want to be sending to us you can take that control on your server code base and you can

tell us what not to send us and what to send us for example an IP address if that's not what you want you have that full control so if you do have those regulations in place it is pretty simple to be able to turn off such things as well

 

DAN: and I assume there's also stuff like scrubbing out passwords and all that sort of thing

 

SUMITRA: yeah again yeah that's true again that is in your that is um where that begins with you and if you want that sitting off you have to specifically state that yourself if you don't want to be tracking such things because it is possible to get that data sent through to us if that's what you've put through but you can definitely yeah

again turn that setting off

 

DAN: and if I'm trying to think from like if I do like a course segmentation of the data that I assume that you're collecting then I assume that one layer of data is metrics

or measurements that you get from the browser itself like for example call with vitals another strata would be data that you're collecting from a framework or a library that I'm using and then another layer you assume would be applicative that would enable me to actually like send notifications or signal events or whatever into your system as well is that more or less correct?

 

SUMITRA:  yeah I'm yeah if I do have those layers of how you want to be monitoring

your data and if we do want to receive alerts for for example in Crash reporting if you have a specific error coming through that you don't want you can be notified and also without reuser monitoring as well if you want to be notified about what the overall experience is on your specific app how is it going does it need some work is it or is it great you can get notified of a daily digest email notification as well I think that's a great to note that with Corey vitals within raygun we monitor across cross browsers so on chromium and non-chronium based browsers that um core vitals does support whereas within like page speed insights for example they only monitor Google Chrome users and they only accept the people that are they only collect collect data from people who have actually even opted in Google Chrome users which can give you pretty skewed results and false positives as well so if if you're not looking and write down for your core with vitals you can actually see across the board from all the chromium and non-chrony imbalances that core vitals actually supports which you'll probably get a lot more accurate results as well and

 

DAN: yeah I just wanted to we kind of do the same thing at Wix essentially that that we also like like you said we we collect this sort of data from any browser from which you can get it and not just from the Google Chrome browser it's important to note then that on the one hand like you said it provides you with with potentially more accurate data because you're looking at at more sessions but on the other hand you do need to remember that at the end of the day Google themselves are only looking at the sessions that get into Crux in terms of their ranking signal so if you're concerned about a visitor experience as you should be then it's great that you're looking at more sessions but if your only concern is is ranking then then some of the sessions that you're reporting about don't actually impact the ranking that's just a thing to note

 

SUMITRA: yeah yeah definitely

 

CHUCK: I have a couple of questions here so one is and and this is one of the things I was kind of heading toward when I was uh talking earlier is so Crux you get your

numbers like you said it was kind of you don't get the individual sessions it's all kind of aggregated over 28 days if I remember right so you just kind of get aggregated information right

 

BIANCA: that's right it's a 28 days cycle which also means you know if you make improvements for you to really say the full impact of that you have to wait 28 days

 

CHUCK: immediately

 

BIANCA: you don't see it immediately it's aggregated for the whole site I mean you can put individual pages into page insights and measure those but you know it's fairly tedious if you want to see only specific areas like business credit critical areas of your site and and just a comment to what's Dan was saying earlier is this was what Rick picked up when he said cool you should be using a Ram Tool in parallel with the crack starter set but make sure they measure things the same way so of course we're measuring the the vitals we're using the library the Google library for that but also you have the chance to set up rum to be just showing you the data of the last month and to only show you data coming through from chrome users

 

CHUCK: yeah that was the other question I had was how do you know you're measuring it the same way and so it sounds like there's a Google library

 

DAN: yeah exactly there's a Google library created by by Phil Walton another googler we should probably get him on the show sometime he wrote yeah he wrote this nice and actually fairly small and lightweight library that actually collects the collects the data and yes it's it's usually the best way to integrate The Collection functionality and indeed Ensure or that you're collecting it the same way that Google does

 

BIANCA: yeah and so we collect the data the data and where we show you everything in Ram but then you can filter down to just look at it the same way that Google would if you're specifically interested in passing those scores so if you want to make sure everybody um has a great experience overall you want to look at everything if you want to look at on the business critical areas of your site and make sure that you're passing the scores for that or that people have a great experience there you can filter it down to that if you say you have a Marketplace or an e-commerce website and you're only selling into specific regions then you can look at only those customers in those regions and make sure that you're optimizing the experience for them I mean it's very difficult to make sure you're optimizing color vitals globally because of the different conditions and the different hostings and so on so that's that's definitely Advantage Advantage you have in in Reagan to be able to filter and just look at those specific groups of use

 

SUMITRA: that as soon as you plug in ray gun into your code base and you start receiving traffic on your site the data comes through immediately so you don't have to wait 28 days whereas in page speed insights you do have to wait that 28 days and another great thing is that you can see a historical data as well as Bianca mentioned you can see two months from past the 28 day retention that Google page speed insights actually has another thing to also note is that we can also let our users know of when what the larger largest assets are within the granularity of the section of loading the asset and how long it takes a load such as how long is a transfer load how long is the DNS load of a specific content and that's basically who of the site visitors are affected by poor core with vitals so we can definitely I feel like make ourselves more with what cracks can offer into doubtful ways as well and again also the top level filters in ray gun as well can actually pinpoint certain aspects as to what metrics look like in certain countries like asbian convention certain conditions and them as actually poor connection internet connection in some countries as well you are catering to not just desktop but you're also carrying to mobile as well they can have different load times for different aspect ratios depending on what your kissing on depending on who you are exactly getting your uh users to use your website on so I think ah LCP I believe is going to be very dependent on power processing of devices and this is great because you can it's great because I for Ram you can actually use the top viewer filters to see how and what devices are affected by poor core web

vitals metrics as well so I thought I'd just point that out as well

 

DAN: that's actually something I wanted to ask you about which is besides the core web vitals themselves are you also looking or monitoring other performance metrics uh you know stuff like maybe first contentful paint or or the or time to First buy it or stuff like that or can I configure config monitoring for the for additional metrics

 

SUMITRA: yeah so we definitely we have custom timings as well so you can actually put them whatever metrics you want to monitor for your sites and we differed it by default have this paint I believe and also first contentful paint as well there are a lot of performance metrics that we do collate for you we also collate the fully loaded State we do xhr calls as well and see how the time it took took all the specific HDR requests to respond there is a lot of different different metrics that you can collect Beyond cooling virus as well well to understand the breakdown of a specific session yeah did you want to touch on that further Bianca

 

BIANCA: yeah I think it was just a great another great point to say look um and

even Google said that when they announced covered as I said it's you know we're going to continue to change these to add more metrics to further move into a mobile first approach to put the customer the user experience at the center so for us this message is is great because we are saying monitoring customer user experience is something you should be doing all the time and you should be always looking to improve that that experience and to measure your data not just as a one-off in order to achieve a certain search ranking so it's like symmetra sedative it's a flexible system where you can put in those metrics that specifically matter to you and will be adding those standard metrics that you'll need to have because you need even even if combat writers right now don't have a huge impact effect on on your search rankings I mean it's it's going to become the norm and so we'll be adding those those metrics that are becoming the norm that makes sense in terms of the workflow and you can add those metrics that specifically make sense to your application as well

yeah

 

CHUCK: but the application sounds like the implication sounds like though that if I am paying attention to some of these other metrics I might may wind up ahead of the curve when Google comes and says okay core web vitals now include some of this other performance data

 

BIANCA: absolutely and if you've seen um one of one of our customers ux has been picking up quote vitals I think as early as June last year so they've been writing about it and writing about how they improved um the Corvette vitals and now as a result of that they're ahead of I think like 90 of their their competition so like this is definitely the message we're sending to the Reagan customers is do this now because now it's the time to get an advantage

 

DAN: and and I'll repeat it again um you know it's it's really really great that Google is pushing the market in the right direction using this prod which is the the Google ranking but it's important to always remember that it' so it's it's so much Beyond just the ranking it's also about reducing your bounce rate it's also about increasing engagement if you're it's been shown again and again that if your site is is more pleasant to use more performant then you will get higher conversion rates and on conversely if your site is really slow and clunky then your visitors will bounce so even if you're you're saying I don't care about Google rank I'm run running I have enough money to run an adword campaign and get my my visitors that way if your site is slow and clunky they'll arrive at your site but then they'll just leave so so it goes well beyond just the ranking aspect at least in from my perspective

 

CHUCK: well the marketing books so I I kind of play this game where I live in the tech world and the marketing world and yeah all the marketing literature talks about that too right I mean ultimately you play the game where you're trying to get the traffic first but once you're getting the traffic yeah the next number you're playing with is how do I get these people to convert and yeah if if they're bouncing off your website because it's not loading up or they're not having a good experience or the thing that they need to click on isn't showing up so they don't know what to do those are all viable it's a technology solution but it's a marketing problem

 

BIANCA: yeah and I think this is one of the great opportunities that co-abatters provide right it's bringing those those groups closer together developers designers marketeers because with color vitals there is a measurable goal a shared goal that people now have like to the point where even the people hold the budget care now about achieving these good results and so that enables the teams to work together but it does require everybody to work together because if you have only developers optimizing your website for cover vitals that might be detrimental to your content which then again you know that is detrimented to you reaching the audience in the

first place so it has to be done in parallel and you have to be able to measure what you're doing across the board not just with code vital so co-abouts in context with everything else

 

SUMITRA: it's very easy as well to put the all the work on the engineers as well and give them the work to fix what's currently in production but whereas with the situation you do have the opportunity I agree with Bianca like you do have the opportunity to be able to work with designers and marketers andEngineers as one team and find the best decisions like designing the capability to create a flow and then and decide the placement of the elements like do we need large pieces of context on mobile above the fall do we need all that content there what happens when a pop-up appears does it does it move all the content down the screen or does it just overlay on top of of the current content and even for marketers they can make decisions on what content is crucial to have like I know at raygun that's it's a very close relationship between designers and marketers to be working on what is best to actually present to site visitors on our public website like is that is that hero image really necessary on mobile is it owning necessary on desktop and of course Engineers like they have the opportunity they have the knowledge to be able to actually optimize the content that is presented to them as mocks from designers to to actually compress images or to delay content that's not critical as well so together like everyone can collaborate and this can be one permission to actually improve these metrics as a team it's a great collaboration opportunity um in my view and yet of course like it's a great opportunity to actually improve the user experience like I I totally agree Dan on the point where it definitely is not just about keeping those numbers not just about getting in the green time but it's actually about caring about your customers and your site visitors caring about what they see how fast the content loads and I think that our CLS metric is a great example of like you should really definitely care about user experience because that whole metric there is it's not measuring load times it's measuring the it measures out the impact fraction and the distance fraction that's why it's not a unit of measurement it's just numbers so I I yeah I definitely agree to the fact that it is all about user experience and a lot less about the numbers that come into play

 

CHUCK: are you ready for core web vitals fortunately raygun can help these Modern Performance metrics play an important role in determining the health of your website which is why raygun has baked them directly into their real user monitoring tools now you can see your core web vital scores are trending across your entire website in real time and drill into individual pages to focus your efforts on the biggest performance gains unlike traditional tools ray gun surfaces real user data not synthetic giving you greater insights and control filter your score by time frame browser device geolocation whatever matters to you most and what makes raygun truly unique is the level of detail they provide so you can take action quickly identify and resolve front-end performance issues with full waterfall breakdowns user session data instance level Diagnostics of every page request and a whole lot more visit raygon.com today and take control of your core web vitals plan start from as little as eight dollars per month that's raygun.com for your free 14-day trial

 

STEVE: hey I got a question for you here and this might go off down a little rabbit trail and I think damn might appreciate this because we had a friend of his on to talk about this in terms of accessibility so I know there's I remember seeing a blog post one time that discussed about how I got this great Lighthouse scores what my accessibility was crap you know so we put all this all this time into making sure everything loads fast and it's a good experience and so on but for who and so I'm not sure you know I haven't really studied the core web vitals as as much as some of you so I'm just curious to see how much accessibility plays into a good search ranking or if or how much that comes into play uh with core web Bibles at all the stat that comes to mind and remind me who your friend was that we had on here it was a really good episode Bruce Lawson yeah and he one of the studies he mentioned was the amount of money that is left on the table by e-commerce sites because they have poorly accessible websites and that number so it was in the billions of dollars or you know something like that so anyway I'm just curious to see if and how much if so does accessibility in terms of you know being accessible to screen readers and semantic HTML and all that favor into making a webs or play into a good score well

 

DAN: what I can tell you in this context is is first of all co-work vitals are just one signal out of hundreds of of signals and not necessarily even the most important ones and they themselves are part of what is known as the the page experience signals which include other aspects like being mobile friendly being uh https having a safe brow maybe not including malicious code and stuff like that so so yes are

there a lot of aspects that play into ranking well on Google generally speaking from my experience having good accessibility goes hand in hand with good SEO and with regard to Performance even though a lot of people don't think about performance in the context of accessibility it is actually a form of accessibility because accessibility is all about making your content available to a larger segment of people and if you have poor performance it means that people in certain countries may not be able to access your content it means that people who are who belong to certain segments of society might not be able to access your content because they happen to be using lower end devices so so you know it it all goes hand in hand and at the end of the day it's all about providing a better experience and in that context I definitely think that Reagan and similar Solutions play a very important role in in improving the quality of the web

 

CHUCK: I'm gonna I think you're right Dan and I kind of want to talk a little bit about taking us back to kind of the core web vitals discussion here for a minute because I think sumitra was was talking about some of these ideas on some of the things that we can do you know so the ideas around improving accessibility or improving core web vitals or you know working as a team to do these kinds of things and then all of this stuff right so the thing that I'm interested in is what are the indicators right what is there like a big red you know Banner that comes up or you know I I load up ray gun and it smacks me on the head and says hey this isn't good um you know and then are there helps to know how to fix it for for accessibility for core web vitals for other things that are going to improve the customer experience

 

SUMITRA: well yeah so what I'm wearing right on we don't exactly provide what you can specifically to do um you can't you can't necessarily get that information but I know um when I was actually doing research on improving our core vital metrics for our blog site I actually use ray gun I use that Untouchable success story in itself but I think it was our tool you can you get the metrics right you see where the problems are like for example if you've got a really long render load within a specific request session you can see where it um All Falls Down you do your research to understand why a render would take so long but on top of that we support the fact that you want to know exactly what specific assets you want to be um targeting what specific assets age taking so long to load we have a timeline a timeline chat which gives you a waterfall view of exactly when um specific assets were to load and how long they took so for example fonts and see this files account uh where did it start in the waterfall chart and how long did it take did it take 500 milliseconds did it take 1.5 seconds you can actually see that and you can also filter down exactly in the timeline chart what assets you want to be looking into do you want to be looking into X8 Jack Wars do you want to be looking in JavaScript or do you want to be looking at only CSS you were able to get that granular filter within raygun to understand what content is giving you the biggest bottleneck in terms of your performance

 

DAN: so to better understand what what you're describing let's say I'm looking at the low time of my hero image is it like average or something like that across all the sessions or do I drill down into a particular session or can I do both how how did you present this information

 

SUMITRA: you can definitely do both you can look and a specific page of your site and see how it is performing overall or you can actually look into a user session which I find quite useful I think it's good to be looking at a specific session because you get the opportunity to look at a specific country a specific browser and our specific operating system as well whereas if you compare this to a different session that has a different filter granularity you can see the performance in terms of how it actually renders in terms of such as a New Zealand versus in the states so if you had a customer base that was largely in the States you don't you don't necessarily care about I don't know like India or France or something like that you can actually filter down to the specific country that you want to be targeting itself um because that is where your revenue is generated the most looking into a specific session for a specific user is where you will get that granular information to actually be able to optimize and see where the bottlenecks are

 

BIANCA: yeah so to come at it from from another Direction check what you were asking as I mean I love the idea of having a big red banner that's that's like fix this this is the most important thing and there's a product manager one can dream that will have a list of recommendations that's tailored to you but at the moment

 

CHUCK: either way I just want to know what to do right

 

BIANCA: exactly and so at the moment our recommended workflow there is is something uh sumitra just mentioned but I want to mention it because I'm super proud of it and I don't think anybody else offers this at the moment which is we give you those those good needs Improvement poorer performance segments um like Google does but then you can actually see what does it mean not just in terms of page loads but actually in terms of user sessions so you can drill into those segments and have a look at who are those people what are those sessions that are experiencing this specific page or my side overall in a specific way and then identify those patterns right and so if you have a look at the list of of sessions where the poor performance and you get all the details you can start spotting what might they have in common is it a specific person is it a region or is it something else and then you use the filters to you know remove those that you think are experiencing something a certain way and check okay does that have an impact on the metrics if yes cool go further down that way and really identify who it is and so this is really the the workflow that we were talking about before is going through looking at the experiences on a um I mean you can go as far as granular as specific page a specific user a specific session on that page so it really identifying what could be causing it and then testing your Theory on on the whole group of users to understand if that's the biggest issue that you should be addressing but we also absolutely recommend using a search console Pages inside the lighthouse in parallel because there are some great recommendations on what is causing your scores to be low so use it in parallel get a recommendation on the Google tools and check in rum if that is actually the right thing to fix for your specific group of users and if it's the most important thing for your business at the moment

 

STEVE: hey Dan I did some research and found that if I have you as my hero image of my site I get a lot of traffic just because

 

CHUCK: what a looker

 

DAN: yeah yeah exactly how would you like to say how do you like to say it Steve uh face for for podcasts

 

STEVE: so oh I have a voice for radio voice uh Facebook radio and a voice for being a mine

 

DAN: yeah exactly I'm not much different I actually wanted I very much concur with what uh with what you said Bianca and I even want to give a concrete example about some of the benefits that you can get from using this sort of uh drill down and inside capabilities that you mentioned and also about the fact of multiple people within the organization being able to work together towards a common goal what what I've seen is that very often a cause for bad performance or what are known as marketing pixels or marketing embeds stuff like the Facebook pixel or Google tag manager and stuff like that they can account for as much as 50 percent of uh of a page load time which is kind of shocking but it is is what it is and usually this is something that's totally handled by the marketing department or or group within the company and something that the developers themselves are totally not involved in and when you're have this cycle or that that 28-day cycle with the Crux data somebody in marketing could be adding a bunch of marketing pixels which are really bad for performance but you may not see it for you know potentially a few weeks whereas with real-time rum data you'll see the impact almost immediately you'll be able to drill down into the session and say hey I'm loading all these resources that I haven't been loading before where are they coming from and then realize that because we're running this amazing marketing campaign but we never thought about the fact that it's uh slowing our page load by 50 now

 

BIANCA: yeah that's a great example and also to the accessibility point it's it also depends on how you do it right I remember when I was living in China having no access to a lot of websites because they chose to load things things like Facebook or even Google analytics in the head of a page and it's blocked in China so it just stops the loading of the full page and and so there were companies external companies saying oh well China is just blocking our websites when in fact this was a problem of how they were loading loading this code snippets on the website

 

STEVE: oh Dan you're bringing back nightmares I can remember working at a previous employer where we had and in my case it has more to do with ads more than you know than the softwares where we had this great website it was really

fast and we had to dump in all this ad JavaScript and it would just slow things down and the president wanted to know why it was slower and I told him he said oh you know and left it at that because we got to have the ads

 

DAN: well well yeah obviously it is what it is you know the fastest website is a blank website but you know who cares so if you if you need to run a marketing campaign then you need to run that marketing campaign but all too often what I see is that when the marketing campaign ends people just forget to remove that marketing pixel so you run ads here and ads there and the stuff just accumulates and nobody ever thinks about doing this sort of house cleaning which could dramatically improve the performance of the of the website now if you get an if you are aware if you see the degradation happen in real time then first then two things first of all like I said before you you know what you've done at least you're aware you may not have a choice but at least you know what's happening and you can remember to put in your calendar that you know in two weeks we need to remove this stuff because the marketing campaign will be over by then yeah

 

CHUCK: I think it's interesting though that both you Bianca and Dan you more or less made the point that it allows you to be proactive about it right because otherwise you're going to get that 28 day lagging indicator and then and go oh what's going on here right you could catch it in a couple of days if you're paying attention to the metrics the real user metrics coming in right and

 

BIANCA: also you get the real data right so that was another thing from earlier with Lighthouse Lighthouse is synthetic data it's kind of perfect condition so you might be testing something in development in there and um and everything seems good but once you launch it to real users especially if those are not you know very similar to the perfect conditions that you have at Lighthouse then there's going to be a surprise and you don't want to be biting 28 days to to find out especially if this is business critical and maybe this is okay there's a bit of speculation now but with these marketing campaigns and then advertising those were always measurable right so those are linked to to revenue and you you have a goal that you're trying to achieve and you you have a campaign and you measure measure the results now what I've been seeing come up a lot more recently is companies publishing how improving corporate vitals has impacted on their bottom line on whatever um business metric they're trying to improve and this is this is now interesting because I don't think that was previously really the case with performance or user experience so now we have companies saying well we improved their LCP and that actually increase the number of sales or increased customer retention it creates these these things and you can actually compare against these marketing campaigns and what they're bringing in in terms of Revenue

 

CHUCK: do you have actual examples of that

 

BIANCA: yeah so it's there are a few companies posting about it but most of them are just saying look we we managed to get our code of artists to this in this score go is doing a pretty good job at publishing these case studies and examples themselves so that's kind of the majority I did mention ux earlier so they've been leading in the e-commerce e-commerce Fields about coverters and how to improve them some things I've found where there's an Indonesian e-commerce platform called tokopedia and they improved LCP like I just mentioned and found uh 55 Improvement of LCP led to 23 increase in session duration and so you'll find a lot of those but the more interesting ones are when some companies are measuring this directly to revenue and NetSpend which is a German publishing companies like it News website they of course were tricky and optimized they call it vitals to make their ads more reviewable and by doing that attract higher value advertising and actually make more money with the advertising and so that's that's pretty smart to be combining customer experience in the advertising revenue and really bringing bringing those teams together right and oh yeah another one I'd like to point out that I I thought was super interesting I mean first of all really interesting that lots of these examples are in Asia and it's even even Chinese companies that like I mentioned before probably have have these changes of not being able to access every Everything due to government restrictions but still care about the Google search ranking but one example that I saw recently here we go is agrify so this is an agriculture Marketplace in Latin America they actually went ahead and used those core vital scores so the the development team used the court battle scores to go to their management and say look these scores are really poor yes we could try and improve them but really what we should be doing is rebuilding and move of our Legacy Tech and really start from scratch address all these issues that we have and and all of the technical depth and then as a result of that we'll have better core vitals and we can measure track that and show you so that was great and this is this is a thing where a ROM tool can really help you demonstrate that to management

 

DAN: if I can toot our own horn and I can manage some something that we we've done it works and what we've been able to achieve so I work at Wix as the performance Tech lead at the company and let's put it this way approximately a year and a half ago we were in pretty bad shape relatively speaking in terms of performance the CMS market and the web Builder Market is is very competitive and we were lagging in terms of performance and we kind of made it our company-wide strategic priority and within the past year we've managed to increase the percent the ratio of Wix sites that are eligible for the maximum performance ranking Boost from Google by Sevenfold So we're not

 

CHUCK: wow

 

DAN: yeah by Sevenfold and so we are not yet the fastest CMS in every category or web builder in every category but I can't say that we have the how would I call it the the highest trajectory so you know give us a few months we hope to be in front and and we are ahead of most uh yeah

 

BIANCA: so yeah super impressive I saw your you have a webinar talking about this on on YouTube right so

 

DAN: yeah yeah it's really making a difference for a bottom line because we can in the past we would literally be losing customers uh because they were saying you know our sites we built sites on your platform and they're just not performing sufficiently well and now you know it's actually drawing users over to us because they can get better performance on our platform relative to other Solutions in the market

 

BIANCA: you're getting disadvantage by being you know ahead of your competitors with with this as the perfect example of flipping the conversation to you know people leaving because of the performance to now coming because you're doing so well and I remember in in the beginning I first started learning about her vitals we talked about about these page Builders and you know how they're going to be dealing with with this when yeah as a user as a customer myself I have limited ability to improve for performance and for things that go up vitals myself so

great to see that you're leading the way there

 

DAN: yeah I think I I said it before when we talked about uh call vitals is it you know we are kind of lucky that we that Google's bottom line kind of at least for now aligns with the benefit of the web in many cases not all cases but in many cases and performance being one of them and it's really great to see how they kind of got the entire Market moving in in the right direction into the extent that we've started to compete with each other about who can provide faster sites more accessible sites safer sites it's it's a really it's a good thing

 

BIANCA: it's so important also to again with things like accessibility right because when one of the things I wrote about with the launch of core about as was that this was an advantage for the large companies for the companies that have optimization teams that have the budget to spend monitoring and improving performance and lots of smaller sites especially those on page Builders and depending on page Builders would be left behind so I think it's it's super important for those you know for companies like Wix to be doing a good job and actually helping all those people who are using their page Villas to to run websites to be on par and not be left behind in the search ranking results but also be able to provide

great experiences to their customers as well

 

DAN: yeah so thank you for that and to reciprocate I also think that it's really great that you're providing a tool which enables essentially any company and I assume it's not like super expensive that only like the Fortune 500 can afford to use it that can enable essentially any organization to Monitor and improve their performance

 

BIANCA: that's absolutely true so it's uh it depends on on your traffic so it the pricing isn't just for Enterprise customers it starts very low and everybody can go and try it

 

CHUCK: yep so we're kind of getting toward the end of our scheduled time if people want to start taking action toward core web vitals on their web applications they're

probably doing JavaScript you know maybe they listen to this show and then they have a.net or a ruby or some other backend maybe it's all maybe it's a jam

stack maybe it's something else but what what are the steps right what are the steps for people to take in order to start getting their hands around this practically on their application

 

SUMITRA: I can chime in on this one so first step would definitely be to start monitoring your boy vitals it starts with the people being able to fix your koi vitals as well and so having a team that actually can work together having your designers marketers and Engineers working together is where the core of actually bumping upthe core web files stats I believe and from there I think and terms of fixing what's currently in place I would say wait with plugins they can definitely be more of a like a beware situation like you would not necessarily want to opt in for services that optimized for call with vitals as such such as plug-ins they are more of a one-size-fit-all approach kind of like only using a synthetic-based tool you don't want to be using a one-size-fits-all tool you want to be you want to know you know you need to know your customers and you know them best it's a monitoring cool invites yourself with you can use a synthetic tool obviously but with a lot or user page speeds insights tool alongside a web field monitoring tool such as raygun but with plugins they can definitely be they are different more Community Driven so they can be a lot less secure and contain malicious code as well such as plugins for WordPress so I would definitely kind of stay a bit away from plugins um in my opinion at Reagan we use a page builder as well and we actually switched from our Engineers using and maintaining the public site to our marketers now actually maintaining it using a page builder they can actually optimize your websites quite a lot which was actually quite surprising to see because I haven't actually gone too deep in the page for a while but they definitely have gotten rid of like a lot of unnecessary code they compile the code they do image optimizations and they improve their Eco and performance metric quite a bit it's just one thing to note again you do still want to be monitoring your core vitals you want to see if you can actually take more action on your queer bottles or as a great how it is upskilling your technical team as well your non-technical team sorry can be a bit of an area you will need to invest time in if your team your marketing team for example is not Technical and they want to be working with page Builders so that is another approach more of a technical side of things I would opt in for using cdns so that you can actually cater your content to be served from a server that's closed captioning not available at the moment sounds good all right well I think we're going to move into picks just in the interest of time but this has been really interesting and I just I love all of the Practical uh ideas around this and just the ideas around I guess breaking down the data into manageable pieces and looking at the individual user and filtered user data and and deciding what really matters to you not just from the core web vitals Google ranking but also the user

experience I think a lot of times we just lose sight of that just because we look at Google and say well they must know what they're talking about we just

focus on that stuff

 

CHUCK: so anyway let's go ahead and do some picks

 

hey folks it's Charles maxwood and I just wanted tojump on real quick and let you know that I am putting together a podcasting course I get asked all the time I've been coaching people for the last six months how do you start a podcast how do you put it together what do I need in order to get it going etc etc etc um I've put together the curriculum and I did it through coaching a whole bunch of people and now I want to share it with you you can go check out the course it's actually going to be a master class it's going to be a four week master class or actually walk you through the entire process process of launching a terrific sounding podcast and putting together content that people want to listen to and you can find it at podcastbootcamp.io

 

CHUCK: Steve do you want to start us off with picks

 

STEVE: oh sure I know that I'm the high point of the podcast with the dad jokes

but I'll uh I'll get us going here you know I get messages all the time that people listen just for my dad jokes but anyway so I'm curious to see if you guys have heard of the band they're actually pretty good called 1023 MB the problem is they can't get a gig AJ gig gigabyte megabytes there

 

AJ O’NEAL: oh thank you thank you

 

STEVE: and then for my Encore so my uh my wife and my son are really big into Bigfoot they like some watch those some of those Bigfoot tracking shows on on TV and I told her that you know Bigfoot is sometimes confused with Sasquatch yet he never complains you know Yeti y-e-t-I

 

AJ O’NEAL: yeah yeah yeah we get it okay silent laughter I I want the laugh to come out

but it was just it was silent

 

CHUCK: they're good and then it gets sad because you try and explain them

 

STEVE: well yeah the only reason I do it is because AJ always has this confused look on his face and so I got to make sure he understands

 

CHUCK: it look AJ always has this confused look on his face

 

AJ O’NEAL: that's not true I just sometimes it takes me a minute

 

STEVE: okay anyway that's all I got for today

 

CHUCK: all right AJ what are your picks

 

AJ O’NEAL: okay so I'm gonna start out with I'm gonna have to find the link for this actually there's a YouTube channel where the the girl always starts with hello brains and I think it's uh it's called how to ADHD that's the name of the channel and I never thought that ADHD was a thing I just considered a personality trait I kind of still think that's what I consider it but it does seem like there's some research to show that these these people have similar traits but I don't know if there's enough science to say that their brains are actually different or not I'm still trying to figure that one out if it's just like a colloquial thing or if it's a real thing anyway point is you get methamphetamines prescribed by your doctor if you can demonstrate that you have it so if you want methamphetamines anyway no that's I don't advise anyone to do that but I just I'm I'm learning that a lot of the things that are quirky about me especially things that bug other people or that make my life non-standard are a seem to be associated with ADHD but I also can't say how much of it is the bias problem of if you go into a room full of a thousand humans and you say hey I have this problem then someone else is going to say hey I have that problem too and so then you'd say well out of this group of a thousand humans we've discovered that humans have these problems and so I I don't I don't know how much of it is just confirmation by us and that the people who are active in these communities are sharing the same problems because they have human problems and they happen to be in a group versus like they're statistically significant groupings but anyway I think that it seems to be common among programmers I know a lot of programmers that are diagnosed with ADHD and I was diagnosed with it at myself or in my youth myself so how to ADHD I'm just picking that channel I also have to pick you are not a visual learner by veritasium which Dan has picked veritasium in the past it turns out there's no such thing as visual auditory or kinetic learning styles that's just made up bogus junk and when they've actually tested it there is no statistically significant difference it's just something that sounds cool on a bumper sticker and who do you know that doesn't say they're a visual learner anyway so that's kind of interesting and then the technical stuff Brave search still love it it's great guitar check it out if you want to do self-hosted GitHub and then if you want to follow me on line as I do live live streams and stuff like that and educational resources Beyond code I've got all the links in there and sorry I didn't contribute much today I think a lot of the comments I had with the last time we talked about this I I commented in so I don't think I didn't I didn't have that much new stuff to add so I just kept silent but I was here

 

CHUCK: all right Dan what are your picks

 

DAN: but I I think I'm gonna try to kind of invade Steve's territory with uh two dad jokes

 

STEVE: so uh yeah I said a pretty high standard so I'm hoping is it catching

 

DAN: we will see anyway it's uh I have to tell you that it's so hot in Tel Aviv that today when I took a shower I literally ran out of cold water okay uh

 

AJ O’NEAL: oh I thought it was serious

 

STEVE: and the other thing is something that actually literally happened was that my son came back from the gym and he said dad today at the gym I I ran for three miles and then I cycled eight miles and I did it in under 50 minutes and I said I didn't realize your gym was that big anyway okay tough audience

 

STEVE: I'm pretty good I see where you're going

 

DAN: and finally uh if we were talking about my son he actually shared a video with me uh which I enjoyed it's actually it's not a new video it's a TED Talk from uh way back in 2013 about the concept of the Multiverse it's with the Brian Green who's a theoretical physio American theoretical physicist and it's a really interesting and and thought-provoking talk so I'll share the link to that and those would be my picks

 

STEVE: keep working very cool let me know if you need any help

 

DAN: yeah I probably do

 

CHUCK: all right so I've got a couple of picks uh the first one is I am starting to do some I don't want to call them webinars what I want to call them basically no because so okay so you you earned a rant Dan you earned it so webinars are you show up and somebody gives you good information and then they do a lame sales pitch at the end that's webinar what I want to do is I want to give people just some actionable information and then answer questions and get off no sales pitch no funky whatever no pressure to do anything other than just hey you know go do something that improves your life right and so I'm just going to give you information I'm not going to try and tell you anything and then answer questions for people about like career stuff and things like that what I'm finding is some of the some of my panelists or co-hosts on some of the shows run into funky stuff with their careers it's like what do I do in this situation and it's like well I I have thoughts I have advice some people are trying to start podcasts some people are trying to get noticed in other ways some people are trying to break into the the industry and I'm just like I want to help these people and I want to make it easy to find them so if you go to devchat.tv level up it will take you it's going to show a zoom webinar page is what it's going to do there I said the W word again and I'm just going to do it every Wednesday at noon mountain time and you can just show up I'm probably going to take 10 or 15 minutes and just talk about hey here's how you do a thing right so here's how you figure out where you want to go in your career here's how you find a tool for this here's how you learn a new thing here's how you evaluate boot camps you know whatever and if people ask me a question that requires a longer answer like that then I'm happy to do it right and then the rest of the time I'll answer questions and when I answer questions in this way I tend to go deep right so I'm not just gonna somebody's gonna be like well I'm struggling with this situation at work I'm not just gonna be like I'll read this book right I'm actually going to go deep okay what's your situation what does it look like where are you at what is the what are you dealing with okay what's keeping you from doing this what have you tried this okay well it sounds like this might be the situation okay and and we'll we'll actually dig in and talk about it right so it's going to be some form of coaching right I think some of the

answers might wind up being short but I think some of it's going to be a longer conversation you know 10 20 minutes and uh I just I I want to help people and so if you sign up you know that's what you're in for that's the kind of thing we're going to go to and we'll just go until we either run out of time or run out of questions and I'm gonna do that every Wednesday

 

DAN: because you called it kind of coaching it's it's not a one-on-one right it's

it's a group thing it's a great thing and you just register you don't have to like purchase anything

 

CHUCK: no you don't have to purchase anything there's no commitment from you you just show up you ask your question we'll talk and I'll see if I can help you figure out whatever you're trying to figure out

 

DAN: very cool I hope it doesn't come out as being too late on Israel time because

because it definitely sounds like something that I want to listen in like yeah it sounds interesting

 

CHUCK: yeah and and ultimately I don't want it either to just be uh I have this problem I also want it to be uh my career is not going in the direction I want or I'm kind of stuck on the default developer career path where I feel I'm eventually going to get promoted into management or I'm going to be stuck in senior development career jobs for the rest of my life and I don't know kind of what my other options are and so let's figure out what those are I I want to inspire people I don't want to just troubleshoot careers I'm also happy to troubleshoot careers I'm not ruling that out but I want to help solve both so if you're kind of in that spot or if you're trying to create a product and you're trying to figure out how to start a podcast and build an audience you can do that I mean let's let's talk right I I really want to just dive in and just help some folks out right and build relationships and just see where we can go from there so anyway I'm going to be doing it on Wednesdays at noon we're recording this on a Tuesday so I'm not doing it tomorrow this will come out in like a month next week I'm out of town but after that we're going to be doing it so when this comes out go to devchat.tv level up it'll show up you'll be able to jump on and uh yeah we'll have a conversation if things change when my kids start school it might show up on a different day of the week at a different time but I am committed to doing it every week so anyway right now it's looking like Wednesdays at noon so anyway I'm I'm super excited about it and and I I just  feel like it's an opportunity to help people but I I am doing that training for 10 minutes 15 minutes at the beginning and so that's that's kind of where I was like it's not a webinar but it's training so anyway just putting that out there and then other picks I'm almost done with rhythm of War by Brandon Sanderson I'm really really enjoying that it's a it's a fun book it's fantasy book if you're into that it's the fourth book in The Stormlight Archives so you're probably going to want to start with way of kings and what else

 

DAN: I really like that series but the problem is that such a long time has passed since I finished the last book I'm not sure I remember

 

CHUCK: yeah I had to go back and I've been listening on Audible I've had to go back and re-listen to all the other ones and they're long books

 

AJ O’NEAL: well the way the universe expands on that one too is just insane so I mean you start off with way of Kings feeling like one book and one world but then there's so much growth with the characters and what they're discovering and where they're able to go that by the time you get to rhythm of War it's it feels like a different world but in a very natural way like life is that way you know like you go through a stage of life you get a your first real job or you get married or you have your first kid and life changes and it's different and that's kind of how I feel like those books are the things that are happening in the book at the end of the that one book and going on to the next it's it's a new world to go into it's just I the dude's amazing

 

CHUCK: yep yeah it's fun well and they're all part of his cosmere so at least three of the characters in The Storm like art Stormlight Archives are actually not from roshar which is the world that it takes place in they're from I can't remember the world but the book is warbreaker which is one of his other books

 

AJ O’NEAL: and there's there's another two characters aside from who's in warbreaker

 

CHUCK: yeah so it's it's fun to kind of try and pick them out and see okay who's moving from world world but anyway so I'm I'm really enjoying that and uh yeah I'll just wrap up my picks there sumitra do you have some pics

 

SUMITRA: yeah I've got a couple of jokes as well so if Apple made a car would it still have Windows I hope that yes

 

STEVE: I just saw that one the other day and was taught about it I'm glad you brought that up oh what was the other one

 

SUMITRA: if you dropped a soap on the ground is the floor clean or is it so dirty yeah

 

CHUCK: yes

 

STEVE: no

 

SUMITRA: I thought they were pretty good I saw them online I thought yeah they made me wonder another thing I wrapped up the Formula One series on Netflix everyone expect me to watch something like that but it was very interesting and it's kind of like raygon on steroids I that's how I see it because they're all about performance they're so hyped up they are so the drivers themselves and the team the engineering team and all of them they are so motivated to get the work done on the cars and really get out on the circuit to drive the cars and make sure they stay on top and try and get to Podium position it shows great lessons as well and you really get to understand the mindset of a Formula One driver and you get to see what they actually go through I thought it was I thought it was very motivational it was really interesting to see how Formula One cards work and just in general how it actually cars can actually work too so I thought yeah if you haven't if you guys haven't watched it I would highly recommend watching the form meal one series you guys will definitely get hooked on it I got my my teammate hooked on it actually and he and his partner enjoyed it a lot uh so yeah that's my take

 

CHUCK: awesome Bianca what are your picks

 

BIANCA: yeah so speaking of webinars for the lame sales pitches and I did want to point out that we we have a webinar that we hosted a couple of weeks ago so for for those people for whom this chat about how raygun Works was a little abstract um it has quite quite an extended demo in it so you do not need to sign up to see how we do things right again you can see it in the webinar and we we go into a little bit more depth of these uh workflow steps that we touched on earlier so I'll drop that in the notes so we can share that as well in terms of my picks you have to forgive me that my mind is very much immersed in the co-work vitals world so it is related to

that but something really interesting that I've heard about recently was that Google's motivation obviously it's around customer experience but somebody was saying well this is also a step to make websites slot faster make them lighter so it's ultimately saving them costs but it's also saving carbon emissions and so it's making them kind of a Greener company that's a some pressure in some countries for for them to be doing that because of the incredible amount of energy that these server Farms are using so for Google this is also contributing to being a Greener company and actually doing something actively to reduce their carbon emissions which I very much hope is true and so this would be my pick I've just started doing a bit of research on the impact that you know we in the tech companies have on on carbon emissions it often feels like we're quite removed from sustainability and climate change and those things but actually I think making decisions about technology to use and how to load websites does have a direct link to it and it's super fascinating when you start looking into what's say the selection of your hosting company or the location for that can do in order to contribute to to more sustainable approaches into reducing carbon emissions so that would be my pick have a look at that

 

CHUCK: awesome if you both can put it links to your picks in the chat we'll make sure they end up in the show notes and then if we can just get real quick where people can reach out to you say on Twitter GitHub or anywhere elseyou'd like them to reach out sometimes people like LinkedIn as well that would help and that way if people have questions they can say hey got questions I'm also going to put a link to raygun on Twitter

 

BIANCA: yeah great that's the regular Twitter is great you can reach out to me on LinkedIn if you look for my ridiculous last name you'll find me very easily and uh but I'm not on Twitter myself so I'd say LinkedIn or actually

good old

 

AJ O’NEAL: shame on you

 

DAN: and for those for those listening it's spelled g-r-i-z-h-a-r right

 

BIANCA: maybe Bianca reagan.com is easier actually and now is that you to that

yeah

 

DAN: but you should be on Twitter everybody should be on Twitter

 

STEVE: everybody in Tech needs to be on Twitter

 

BIANCA: I was on Twitter 10 years ago

 

AJ O’NEAL: yeah I I would love to hear why you think that is Dan because I think Twitter is a great place to get roasted and to lose your sensibilities not as bad as Reddit

 

DAN: it depends on how you use it and and what you choose to share or not to share I'm very intentional about both

 

AJ O’NEAL: so people who have Max self-control should get on Twitter people who do not have up to a hundred and ten percent self-control well at minimum 110 self-control maybe don't need to be on Twitter

 

DAN: or maybe don't need to be on social media at all

 

AJ O’NEAL: well I don't want to live alone Dan

 

BIANCA: I'll tell you why I'm not on Twitter it's like I mentioned earlier if I was in China for 10 years Twitter is not a thing there and in New Zealand we all know each other so

 

CHUCK: oh there you go funny

 

STEVE: I thought it was bigger than just a neighborhood it's two neighborhoods

 

SUMITRA: so uh you can uh contact me at sumitra raygun.com so yeah yeah that's the email address or you can reach out to me on LinkedIn I believe the link is linkedin.com symmetra manga those are my primary contacts there

 

DAN: and that's s-u-m-i-t-r-a

 

CHUCK: all right very cool well thank you both for coming this has been fun and it's been great to dive into this because I've been curious more and more curious about it since we talked about it last so I'm gonna have to dive in and see yeah what we can break on the internet with this stuff all right folks we're going to wrap it up here until next time max out

 

STEVE:adios

 

DAN: bye adios

 

BIANCA: thank you very much for having us

 

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