Charles_Wood:

Hey, there, welcome back to another episode of Java Script Jabber this week. On our panel, I said that weird Anyway, on our panel today we have a J. O Neil,

 

AJ:

Yo, yo. Yo, coming at you. Live from the shed.

 

Charles_Wood:

M. Charles, Max Wood from Top End Eves, and this week we have a special guest Is Andre. Is it Mazur or am I

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yep,

 

Charles_Wood:

anywhere close?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

yep, that

 

Charles_Wood:

Do

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

was

 

Charles_Wood:

you want

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

great.

 

Charles_Wood:

to?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Hello.

 

Charles_Wood:

you want to introduce yourself? Let us know who you are and why you're famous.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Uh, yeah, So I was front and developer for many years, and then around two thousand twelve I decided to see if making web games is possible full time. Then I switched started, and Clive Games company started in games, competition game, Devil Smith, Ups, and other things around Web games, and I'm trying to make some decent money out of that ever since.

 

Charles_Wood:

Nice. so M. yeah, I mean, I'm kind of curious where to get started the way I found you just to put it out there. I was looking around. I've been talking to some folks about starting a game. Devepodcast. Um, you know, because we've had different people from different game, you know, Game Dev systems, You know, on the Ruby podcast, We had Mirren who does Ruby motion, which is mostly. he's turned into a game Dave platform Ruby. M. I've talked to Jason Whitman, who does Game Dot Dev, I think is his website and he has a bunch of courses on using the Unity engine. Um, and Ah, so I was like. Well, I wonder if you can do this in Java script right, because that would be cool. and then yeah, and then can I just put it on the web? You know, can be kind of an angry birds, or you know, maybe something simpler or maybe something more complex. You know, on on web technology I kame across game, Deb, dot j, S, Scribe to the news letter, and I'm always just poking kind of lurk. I haven't actually dabbled yet, but uh yeah, maybe you can help change that for us and give us an idea of where to start Because that's that's ultimately where I met. I'm like. Okay, Well, you know I do Jobascript. I know Jove script. You know, Web, Deb is something that I'm pretty familiar with, So I have some of the tools. What do I need to do in order to build the game?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Um, Yeah, so the whole thing is, you already know the language. You already know the tools. I was the one who was switching from front and I was experimenting with web games or games. In general. When I was studying, I was trying to make platform or game in S Plus plus because it was the first and only language that I learned. But then so there was a whole bunch of experimenting. So like two thousand To this and seven or something, I was solidly building games with Ja Quarry,

 

Charles_Wood:

Oh, wow,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

So it's totally possible. It makes absolutely no sense, but it worked

 

Charles_Wood:

I was going

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

but

 

Charles_Wood:

to say

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

it was

 

Charles_Wood:

I don't

 

AJ:

No, that's

 

Charles_Wood:

know whether

 

AJ:

awesome.

 

Charles_Wood:

to admire you or pity you.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Uh,

 

AJ:

I admire you.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

uh.

 

AJ:

I admire you. I don't pity you at all. J. Cray was wonderful. Those were good days.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah,

 

AJ:

very

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

absolutely.

 

AJ:

simple.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

I mean.

 

AJ:

five

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

it was. yeah. it was. It was using the tools that we were building websites and then see if you can actually build some interactive stuff to a level of like a full blown game. It and it was really nice to try with that, and for a few years I was experimenting with that and seeing that okay, it's not entirely easy. Like around two thousand eleven thousand twelve I was giving Talks about. Is it possible to make games with H, t, m, l, Five? and it was kind of possible, but it was still difficult. I remember the fact that there were so. I've built a few games mostly with a query, then found some actual Java game engines. It was Impacts, then chaser, which came out in two thousand Thirteen and it was cool to see some game like. There were lists of like top thirty best five games, or like top twenty most creative Web games or something like that, And so we more or less know knew each other because it was literally twenty or thirty games Totalbckthen, So if you made

 

Charles_Wood:

Oh wow.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

something anything, it was ending up on the lake And was copied over to all the other lists. so Discover Ability was really cool in a way that you just build something somebody learned about it and it was becoming quite popular because it kind of worked and there wasn't much to to play to see, And that's actually when I started travelling around the world and telling people how to make web games. Because I made one. It was

 

Charles_Wood:

Oh, nice

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

one more than the other age. So that was really cool and it was still difficult. that technology wasn't there. It was kind of possible, but you had had to bend this a lot. First games didn't have any music or sounds. The rendering was really slow and crappy, but fast forward ten or more years. And we are there Fairly easy to build web games. We are laughing that in the community that, but then there was literally like twenty or thirty developer Scorelisto game. Now there are folks who are making hundreds of web games and we don't know who they are. That's that's easy it is, and this is also quite a challenge with discoverability and monetization. When you have so many games. it's a lot more diffic To make a living out of that and getting back to how would you start right now? There's whole lot of tutorial on many game engines. You can pick game engines. If you know Java script, you can write games from scratch. You can find some engines to use them to write Javascre But if you have absolutely no knowledge about Travscript at all, there are game engines in which you will drug and drop drop components, Set stuff in the editor. Export to the Web and it will work. So that's that's totally possible. And you mentioned game, the Jas Weekly, which runs since two thousand Fourteen. It started in January, Two thousand fourteen. Every Friday it's out We have tutorial section and that'sliterally at least one or two twotorials in every single issue. Um, since January thousand fourteen, Um, And it's it's really good material to look into it. But as I said, if you are curious about game engines, you can look for some comparisons which is interestin For you. if you want to program. If you want to drug and drop, and then look for twoutorials or reten or videos or whatever. There's a lot of materials out of there, so it's really compared to a few years ago. It's almost impossible to not find anything on on your issue. On your idea that you have.

 

Charles_Wood:

Cool. so uh, kind of going back to where where we started? I mean, how do I start right? It sounds like there are multiple ways to start. It sounds like. Um, you know, things kind of get shared around a bit. But yeah, if I wanted to go build my own game right, I have an idea for a game. How do I build it? Like? how do I get something out there that people can go play with?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Um, so I think the easiest is to copy something easy. Like make yet another flappy bird clone, or like,

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

break out game or tetris, or whatever, You want to win prizes with that in some game, jumps or competitions or whatever, But I think it is still the best way. At least it was. It felt for me that it was differently in Best to see how things are made and look into the source code and try to replicate that. I remember this from learning web development when, like Snowy Effect in Java, Crypt was the huge hit on the websites. And like, how do you make snowfall on the website

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

with just a few lines of Java Crypt, And you could just view source it, see how it works, And then copy it over and modify it so I think like, at least for me this was the best to start to see how other folks folks are building something, and then try to replicate it, either copy parts of the code. change it, or like, try to do it with the knowledge I already have, So one thing would be checking for tutorials and just following them. the other would be Trying to build something small. Something known. So there's a whole bunch of

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

materials about it. But if you have your own idea, I can totally say, go ahead and try to build it with what you know already or look for for game engines that could help you do that. But if you want to start writing in pure Java script, that's perfectly fine for experimenting. There's a whole bunch of games out there Which are open source Gstatingkigms competition we are organizing Since two thousand twelve, every single game from every single edition. The source code is on Get Hup, so you can play it on the website, but you can also look into the source code and see what crazy things folks did to achieve what they did.

 

AJ:

So

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

AJ:

between Web, G, l and Canvas, and just having dives with C. s. S. Where is a better place to start?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

I think With canvas I went with through all of those started with the query, and like moving deeps and seeing what happens and knowing Java script, knowing email before diving to web games, helped me build those first first experiments, and Canvas back then was really not well optimised. Um, so it was quite difficult to get some cool effects. But then on the canvas you can patent whatever you want. Basically, if you know how to do it, and with with Webgl, as long as it was to the rendering, not realy engines will abstract that from you, So you don't even need to look what's actually happening, But I think it's It's worth learning all of that to have some perspective on. Um, what are the differences and also doing all that to see how much stuff game engines are doing for you, But I think it's quite important to do that before diving into game engine. Um, to know that if something is Pening, something is not working. You have some issues. Then you can actually look into the source coat of the game engine, For example, and or like, see errors in the console, and then know what's going wrong. what's what's happening, But I think if you're focusing only on like trying to release something, it's perfectly fine to do a short cut and just pick an engine. Look into that To learn some basic examples and try to build what you want to build.

 

AJ:

So I'm looking at one of the websites you supplied the on Clive games. and there is a game called Forest Quds, that's basically a memory match game.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah,

 

AJ:

To me, This looks like it looks like it's done in Htmlanjobascript. This doesn't look like a canvas game. What is this? Is this job scriptores at Canvas.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

So actually, so this is Canvas, But

 

AJ:

Wow,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

the very first card game I've built was was just h, t, m l. Anjaascript, but it was like literally eleven years ago or thirteen or something like that, but right now Canvas rendering is really fast and there are tools engine switch. I will help you developed stuff faster. So for example, First Cutis is game created in Phasor, which abstract a lot of things, So I could change the rendering method from Canvas to Webglumand. I will not need to change any like it's with one line of Java script that I'm going to switch between those, And this is abstracted to a point that I'm using the engine to to build components to render stuff on the screen, and I don't need to touch canvas at all, so that's cool and it doesn't matter that much what tools do you use as long as the game is entertaining, so for most of the players It could be, and as it could be H, t, m l. it could be Unity expert. It could be pure Java script or quare. As long as they enjoyed the game. That's that's perfectly cool.

 

Charles_Wood:

That is cool.

 

AJ:

So

 

Charles_Wood:

and this being a card game, I just wanted to jump in because I've talked to a few people that they have like card games or board games that they want to convert, as opposed to you know, kind of a platform game or a side school game. And so that that looks cool too, it's just an opportunity to you know, doesn't have to be kind of your traditional video game. anyway. Go ahead, a J. You. we're gonna ask omething else,

 

AJ:

I was going to say, Do you think that it is better to learn the primitives first to learn canvas? or do you think that it's better to learn the patterns first by having the some sort of game engine that abstracts it?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

I think it's It's better to start with with the primitive Ith writing, experimenting with pure Java script. but I'm totally leaving that to who wants to try. It's like I know game creators who haven't written a single Java script line and they are we game developers and doing perfect Fine. So it's not needed for releasing games and being a successful developers. Um. but given I was a front and developer and I have this background, I had a proposition to to create more and more games with tools where I drug and drop components, and in ther theory, it would be faster to release more game. But I really like coding, and I really like tinkering with Java crypt code, so I really prefer using for example Chaser, for example, I don't know Unity, Expert or whatever, or like came engines where your dragandrup components, but I think it really depends on what you want to achieve, Like I or I would recommend learning Javascreep Temalcsess first, but it's not necessary. I can totally see folks diving deep into any picked came engine and just learning the tool and building call games and releasing them.

 

Charles_Wood:

So it sounds like you recommend people understand the fundamentals, but you recognize that some people are just going to do the game, Deb, and they might get bogged down with the other pieces of it.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah, Absolutely, there's so many different cases how someone got into a game Dev, that

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

it's really up to them.

 

Charles_Wood:

Right. Yeah, it's It's interesting to, because I know some people. I mean, My example of this is when I first got into development in a big way, right, So I done some at school, Um some software development, An things like that, But when I really got into Web development, I was learning Ruby on Rails, And so I learned Rails, And then I kind of picked up how Ruby and its fundamentals worked, working in a higher level framework, and you could get some of that I guess from Phasor, but at the same time, if you have a solid fund Understanding of the fundamentals, it's going to serve you very well, because then you're going to understand what's happening under the hood, and you can more easily trouble, shoot and do things that are outside of the framework or beyond the norm. I guess,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah, exactly, and like, if I'm trying to do something with the game engine and it's not behaving exactly in a way that I wanted to behave. I will sometimes just write a pure Java script function to

 

Charles_Wood:

M.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

do that for me,

 

Charles_Wood:

hm.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

So that's that's the advantage. It's not needed. I could focus on just using the tool, but it could help in some situations. And sometimes if I see something is not working then even though the game engine is abstracting a lot of things, then I can still know that it's not working Because some um, some rules that if I write write it in Java script, then I would immediately recognize

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah, So M. one other thing. There's so many questions I want to ask in so a little time. Um, So one other thing that I'm wondering about is Um, some of the engines that I've looked at that kind of give you a temple, right. So if you want, If you have like a top down platform, Er, like Legend of Zelda right, it will give you the pieces and then you can replace the art work and you can change the behavior of things and stuff like that and then others. That kind of expect you to Struct a lot of that from scratch. Um is, is pacer more, one or the other, And are there other engines that you recommend that the take one approach or the other

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Umphasor, Do have a bunch of them plates. Well, not not the engine itself. I mean, the even

 

Charles_Wood:

Right?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

the Phasor creator offers some Tem plate code, But there are so many developers using Chaser that the are a whole bunch of starters Tem plates, and what not, And even I have one which is in clay phasortmplate, And That's that's exactly what. the over the years when I was building those to the hyper casual games, usually in portraits with simple cor mechanics. The games always had made. many came over all of those managing sounds and music.

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

And so I did the templa, for like I extracted things that were repeating instead of like Co Being over from previous projects or starting with recently finished and removing a bunch of stuff. I made a ten plate. It's free and open source on Get Hap, which contains the usual stuff that I need for my game. People find it useful because it's It's kind of old school. There is no build tools. It's just pure Java Script file

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

or a bunch of those that does something. And then if you want it, you can, you can include that into the into your build step, But it's a temp plate with man, Many with settings managing sounds and music, but I know that developers building more than two or three games, they tend to either pick some Plates that are already there, or if their games are too specific, they usually create their own, but it's definitely something that most of the developers specially more experienced, are either using or building, Because it helps a lot. It speeds up the development and removes all those borrowing things, like showing and hiding setting, Switching on and off the music or sounds. It's always the same. I can replace the, but on images or backgrounds, but the functionality is more or less the same, so it's boring and I don't want to do it when I'm starting with new fresh Tam plate. I'm jumping into the game loop and immediately trying to to see if the game idea makes sense and focus on that.

 

Charles_Wood:

That's awesome. One other question that I have is let's say that I start putting together the game right, So use the temple. I'm going to need music. I'm gonna need art. I'm going to need you know some of these other things that you've talked about. you said your wife's a graphic designer, so I'm assuming she helps you with some of this stuff, But if my wife is not a graphic designer, she manages the lunch program at the elementary school. How do I get our work Because I can't

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Um,

 

Charles_Wood:

draw either.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah, I mean, I feel kind of lucky with my wife being a graphical designer, because I can just go there and say I need this and I will more or less get it. I might get something totally different because she will have a totally different view on the project

 

Charles_Wood:

Yah.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

you want to build. But there are places where you can find Graphic designs, sounds and music for free. There is. I think it was open game art. The service that there is literally like thousands of assets. Graphic design sounds in music. where folks are sharing those assets. Most of them are free. Most of them have really good licenses. in a way that you can use those in commercial projects as well. you should read the licensing, but in general there are Places where you can find the whole sets of assets for games, so you can literally build a game. Basically any game with a full set that you can use without drawing a single image yourself.

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah, I've also, so I talked to Jason like two or three times a month. Jason, who does Game Dot courses? It's not Game Dot devis Game Dot courses. Um, and he's also mentioned the Unity App store, or as Et Store, has a bunch of stuff and you don't have to be using Unity to use it, but you can use a lot of their assets, too.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah, absolutely, and there are many places more known or less known that you can. You can find assets. There's in the web game community. there's one called Kenni Kenni n l, who creates assets that people are using mostly intutorials. I would guess that like eighty percent of the tutorials are using his Assets because they are free and open and you don't have to worry about licensing because he's sharing that. So it's really cool. something that you can use. You don't need to draw anything. You can use those to prototype your idea. And then, if you think this makes sense and you want to go for there, you can always hire a designer or look for more specific assets That would fit your needs.

 

Charles_Wood:

Makes sense. One other one I'm gonna throw out there. I use this for the podcasts. I find the podcast. Music on it is Audio jungle Dot net. I don't know if they have good video game music, but it might be worth looking at and it's that the difference is is the licensing on music is funny sometimes, and so with theirs it's all once you've paid for it, you have unlimited use license.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

And yeah, and like most of our games and clave games, sounds are sounds, and music are taken from the Web. We don't have an audio guy, so it's like literally,

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

let's look through the library and see which of those will just fit the best and go with that.

 

AJ:

So question with that, Have you had any issues where either you're doing demos of your game on Youtube or other people are live streaming playing a game? It looks like you're mostly in the hyper casual, so I don't know if people are lives dreaming that, But have you had these issues where people are getting Youtube content claims on music that is properly licensed And how do you deal with that?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Um,

 

AJ:

If so,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

So with hyper casual games, there's not that much streaming. I would say

 

AJ:

Yeah,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

it's a bit different market, so we didn't have anything like this for our games,

 

AJ:

Have you

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

since

 

AJ:

done

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

we

 

AJ:

any?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

do have proper licensing, but

 

AJ:

Have you done any Youtube demos with them? Where you? where you demo the game play on you tube? Or you just let people play it because they can just play it

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Um, we actually didn't focus on the trailers or game place, since huge chunk of business on web games could be dealing with publishers and selling licenses for the games. so we, instead of targeting the players, we kind of target make deals with publishers. Um, so we do have people playing our games directly and talking with us. So we do have the community around the games themselves. But the business side of things mostly revolve around publishers, and I haven't heard any issues with sounds or music. If they are properly licensed, they are perfectly fine. There are some let's players that rid the games, played the games and there was no issues with that, but it's not that popular. There aren't like hundreds of outubars that play our games, because

 

AJ:

Right right. I

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

they are really small and

 

AJ:

get

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

hyper

 

AJ:

them.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

casual. And you, your other, sit on the toilet and play the game yourself than Watch someone plays on your tip,

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah, I have a neighbor that he works for a game company. He's writing him in Cameron. Um, but yeah, he explained it the same way. He's like we're not writing heavy games. Were writing the game that you sit on the toilet and play.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Exactly

 

Charles_Wood:

Um, One other thing. I'm just going to throw in with that. so I have run into this in the podcast community right where somebody gets the license to use specific music, popular music in their podcast and then they post it to you tube, and you tube. you know, issues a copyright notice. The way that that typically works. Just if you run into this is M. So people can file. at least in the Us. they can file a claim against you using the digital copyright Millennior, Millennial copyright copy D, C, m, a d, m, c, A. It's one of those.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

The Mc,

 

Charles_Wood:

So the way that that works because I've had them filed against some of the podcasts as well. Is you can file a counter claim and then they actually have to demonstrate that they own the rights to the The, To the music or whatever, And then the flip site is is that you also have the opportunity and you can do it. when you file your counter claim. You can send a copy of your license to the music, and so between the two, They effectively then have to demonstrate that you have violated the license to the music, or you tube, or whoever else is more or less required to leave it up. Now, You tube has an automated system that flags stuff now. But you, you? essentially you file the counter claim Same way and they have a form you can fill out and it's the same for Apple podcasts and Google and anyone else to post music or anything else. So if you're wondering what that process is, it's not nearly as scary as you think it is, and you don't need to get a lawyer involved at least at the first step.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

And

 

AJ:

So

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

with d, M C. A, I do ha, have some experience. Unfortunately, because I was on the other side of the fence with shady publishers, taking games

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

from the web side, publishing everywhere and then earning money out of the other, they implemented. so that's also kind of a problem that if you publish

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

something on the Web and it works, you can more or less copy it. Even if you make it harder, It's not impossible. It's just amount of time people have To spend to actually do it. So we do have some battles with some random publishers on the other side of the world, trying to explain them that you have to buy a license to be able to

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

use the game. So yeah,

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah, software copy writ able as well.

 

AJ:

So I know that this is off topic, but I just want a quick answer from you. If you that the problem I've seen is that they repeatedly tag you every single video. So I had bought licensed

 

Charles_Wood:

Yes,

 

AJ:

music and I stopped using it because I got a claim on every single

 

Charles_Wood:

Yep

 

AJ:

video and there was nothing for

 

Charles_Wood:

it.

 

AJ:

me to do about and I thought Screw it. You know,

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah,

 

AJ:

I paid

 

Charles_Wood:

you have to. you have

 

AJ:

for

 

Charles_Wood:

to

 

AJ:

nothing.

 

Charles_Wood:

counter every single video. Yeah, you have to counter on

 

AJ:

Okay,

 

Charles_Wood:

every one of them.

 

AJ:

Yeah,

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah,

 

AJ:

because to me that's not Worth it. I just I don't want

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah,

 

AJ:

to spend my life countering.

 

Charles_Wood:

yeah, it's not

 

AJ:

Okay,

 

Charles_Wood:

sustainable. really. Um, I did have. so one of the things that I run into is that some of the games I like to play are on the web. right, So and go play with the Mind browser. But then they're also published to some of the Ap stores on like an intend, O switch or X box, or whatever, can you do that with these web Java script generated games?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yes, but it is extremely difficult and it makes almost no sense

 

Charles_Wood:

Okay,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

in a way that it's It's technically possible. There are tools that will allow you to package web games for negative market places, and there are single success stories where someone actually build a web game. released it for Arketplaces and earn a good amount of money. I don't know if you know Vampire survivors. That's That's the game that was built with Tasor initially, and

 

Charles_Wood:

Uh,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

then

 

Charles_Wood:

huh,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

the deaf is switching to native tools because it will be just easier.

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

So it's technically possible. there are success stories. If you really want to do it, you can totally do it, but more to to try the market to see if it gets the success. If It does, then you have enough money to to actually either do it yourself or hire someone to build it natively for for the market places, And then I think it makes more sense and but I think the most important thing about the web platform is that you don't need to be on specific market places. You can just send the U, and someone else can play the game almost instantly And that's why I said It's not making much sense in a way that with web games, the Web is the platform. You don't need to pay for someone to have your game in the market place or not, or pay for the adverse, because it's the only way to reach the audience. A web game works like website. You can do all the marketing. You can do whatever you want with it, and you can The dens. You can reach the players. You can do marketing, and what not.

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

And the whole thing is, The distribution platform is like sending the Ural. And that's it. it just works.

 

Charles_Wood:

Right. So I guess the other question that I'm running into through in my head is Yeah, you know how do you monetize them? Because you know you've got a catalogue of games I click through on one of them and I seem to be able to play it for free. And you know that that kind of you know that it's cool, but you know it doesn't pay the bills, So so how do you make money on them then?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

So there are different ways to do it. Unfortunately, most of them involve adverts, so

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

most of the revenue goes from showing advertising. And or if it's not showing advertising, it's selling your data somewhere to someone.

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

There are other ways to to monetise games. There Are many experiments. I don't know if you've heard about the web monetization. A p. i, which is a way to stream micro payments when being on specific website or playing in a specific game, So streaming micro payments in real time, like one hundredth of a cent or something like that,

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

but it's still highly experimental and so you can put the advertisements yourself. You can try to do in purchases And build for native market market places. you can sell the games. You can use platforms like each Io, where you actually ask for a fixed price. You can ask. Ask for Pay what you want. You can release for free and have donations. You can run part beyond, and one of the things. one of the ways we are earning money is throw lie Caning, which I already mentioned, which is talking with publishers who have traffic who have some a big amount of users and they want to entertain them. So they buy the licenses for our games, have the right to show them on their own portal, and then they can do whatever they want with them in a way that they can either have five bucks pay pay wall, or

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

show their own Vertisements or advertise their own products. Or there are so many ways to to actually, or money. I mentioned that most of them are adverts, but there is a lot of efforts to actually shift the focus to two other other things. But yeah, it's It's still difficult. Adverts still take most of the most of the market,

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah, it makes sense. Do you do any kind of like in a purchase where people can buy a like, an asset or an extra? I don't know, an extra card or character tool or something.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Not in our games specifically, as they are supposed to be hyper casual and and and simple. We don't even put any arts ourselves. So all the games are on our website, and Clive

 

Charles_Wood:

Uh

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

games that

 

Charles_Wood:

huh,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

come for free, and there's literally know. No adverts. No, no, no, no paying. Everything is free. Because of we are doing deals with publishers and then we are usually implementing there as decays to show their arts on their porthos. Um, we get paid to adjust our games and then they are earning money from adverts.

 

Charles_Wood:

Right, makes sense. Just trying to think what other questions I have. Do you run into any kind of compatibility issues like you know, Chrome or Rome extensions, or you know specific other browsers or on mobile or anything like that,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah, that was a big issue. Ten is years ago that browses were implementing the same things in a different way, especially if you weren't using tools or engines that were abstracting that from you like from from the times that you had to do Ces prefixes for different

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

browsers, So it felt the same. Thehowdio had to be done in like five different ways, For for every browsarengine, or you have to have like five different for months because this one will work here. This one will work there. Those two may be here, but not entirely so it's It's a lot better right now, but recently with Chrome Taking over the market and being almost a monopoly with Fire Fox losing market. That not looking good, because you need to have competing browser engines and the systems, So that's how standards should be built in a way that the standard is creat, And then browser vendors follow

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

that, not

 

Charles_Wood:

right,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

like Chrome, picking some idea implementing it and then saying it works like this, and you have to catch up.

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah, makes sense. One other thing that I'm looking at is M. You've got a couple of games here that are different types, And so I wanted to ask a few questions about those one is how do you so like? You've got forest quies, which is kind of a memory game, you know, and that's just going to be what it is. but some of these like I was looking at the body guard game, for example, and it looks like it might you tap on the screen to move the vis, destroy viruses and stuff like that. Um, how do you make sure that it's hard enough to be interesting, but not so hard that it makes me want to give up.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Um. it's a matter of testing and like, But the important thing is to not like. Of course, when you're a developer, you are the very first tester as well,

 

Charles_Wood:

Uh

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

but

 

Charles_Wood:

huh,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

from the competition I'm organizing, seeing developers not having time to ask other people to actually play test the games. So They, in most of the time they end up too hard. Because if you're the creator, then you know the game from memory and you have no issues playing it because you are doing that from the very beginning,

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

but you should ask other folks to try it who haven't seen your game at all, or like not, are that skilled or are experts in other types on other generals of games, So it's kind of crucial to share the game with the stars, bet your family friends, or like random people on the Internet. But because, like most of of the games, especially in those competitions where you have limited time are too hard Because someone focuses on having a good experience for themselves, thinking that the balance is good, But they know every single aspect of the game and they know how to do things what to do in the game and most of the feedback that is done by other participants to the entry that is solidly submitted, and it's like literally five minutes after the dead line and they're like Oh crap. I could have made this a little bit easier because people don't know how to control the game, or like Have difficulty getting through the first level. so Yeah, like sharing the game to be tested and remembering that it should be easier than you think it is, is quite important.

 

Charles_Wood:

Awesome. another one that, and I'm looking at some of the other games you have, because some of these look like games that I might want to build. So another one's The Wizard Quest, and it looks just at the screen shots. It looks like it. It's kind of like. What? Like a candy crash or something where you're moving

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah,

 

Charles_Wood:

the

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

much.

 

Charles_Wood:

pieces.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

much.

 

Charles_Wood:

A

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

three type of

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

game.

 

Charles_Wood:

but it also looks like it kind of has a trail or a story to it.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah, that's that's a little bit more complicated game. That's actually a funny story with that game Because when you don't know how to build games or starting to do that, you think that making games is easy. That's the famous mistake that you do that. a whole lot of people are like

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Okay, let's build the very first game. Let's make it an mamorpg. Let's try World of War craft, but better, and after a few years in the basement, trying to do something that works, you fail miserably And the important thing is to start with as simple as possible. That's why I said at the beginning to try with break out clone with Floppy Bird Clown, Because I actually so wiser Quest was the very first game I wanted to release us and Clive Games Into Thousand Twelve. I struggled a lot. I rewrote the game seven times from scratch because

 

Charles_Wood:

Oh,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

it had

 

Charles_Wood:

wow,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

to be perfect and it still wasn't. There was always something new to do. There was always something to change to update, and some things were just too difficult. so I throw that into the thrush. I made Captain Rogers, which was literally. It's the first, the oldest game on The website, which is literally just flying space and avoiding asteroids. And that's it. There was. There is no shooting at all, and the bonuses or there only because those are the asteroids, and and have different effect on the player. So I was trying to build Wisarquest and it was really difficult, so I went with like Okay, let's build whatever, And I built that Captain Rodgers. And then it was like I went through the whole process of testing building really In a game. Then I started being invited all around the world to tell other people how to build web games Because I did that one and it was always ending in some, like Top thirty best entries or whatever, And then I decided to build Twisarquest like I was literally. A few years later, I was travelling around the world, giving a talk titled How to make a simple Web game in like four years or five years,

 

Charles_Wood:

Uh, huh.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Because it literally took that time After releasing Captain Rogers, building few other very simple games out of each. Every single game was having some component that I would use in Wizard quest, Like, let's use them up. Let's have much. three mechanic. Let's show at least of beasts or items or whatever. Let's manage sounds and music. So all of those games upon Loisartquest helped me build confidence and skills, and after those few years then I sit and decided to build Twesertquest, and it literally took like, I don't know, two months of development, But the very first version in two thousand eleven, two thousand twelve. Up until when reserve cost request was released, took like four or five years, So It's still fairly simple game. but it was kind of important to build those skills, learn how to release games and then know that some projects are still to be r, or will take too much time or need preparations.

 

Charles_Wood:

Got a I love that progression too, because it seems like and I do this too right. I get in and it's like I'm going to do the big massive thing and part of the process is. Yeah, doing it wrong. figuring it out. You know, trying something. Maybe, Yeah, finding a different project to try it in where it doesn't have to interact with all the complex stuff that I've already got in there. And yeah, it's it is. it's a process. It's a skill. Like anything else,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

I mean, there are people who like hid themselves in the basement for five to ten years, and release the very first game and made a huge success. But those are really only a handful of cases. That

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

The similar thing about them is that they say that they almost went insane doing that.

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

So it's really really challenging, Cold, and maybe not the best way. I mean, you could try that, but in most of the cases, if you go with this as smooth as possible, then it gets you the best results, and most of the developers I know, really try to follow that that progression somehow.

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeh, yeh. Absolutely. so. one other question that I have, we're kind of getting towards the end of our recording time. But, um, one other question that I have related to this is it looks like there might be a little bit of story component to some of these games. Um, so how do you? How do you come up with a good story? That kind of makes people want to go to the next stage and see what comes next

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

So since we are focusing on hyper casual, there is not much of a story, but

 

Charles_Wood:

Right.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

the first entry is. so what we did because we were like Okay, let's do something, but what? And then there's avoid a black void of absolutely no ideas.

 

Charles_Wood:

Uh,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

And

 

Charles_Wood:

huh,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

so we decided to participate in game gums and come Ompetition acathons, because you have a theme and you have a fixed deadline for submitting, So we actually use evens like Ludumtee or Global Game Jam, where a theme was announced and we're like Okay, We, We want to try experimenting with card game mechanic, or like tapping on the screen and moving from side to side, or like shooting at stuff, And then the theme is Water. For example, Okay, so let's make a game where you jump on the floors up and avoid the fluid. And that's how Flutes Cape was created. So most of the stories, most of the ideas came from participating in a game gum. And if we like the prototype that we built because it doesn't have to be a full game, it could be just interesting idea. If The prototype was good enough for us and we thought it has a potential. Then we were releasing the foot game, and since there those are still hyper casuals. They will take like one or two months or three months of development. So there's not much of an effort. And if it's a flop, if it fails, If people don't like it, that's fine. We learned new skills and we can then move on to To the next idea, to the next game to the

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

next hakathon, and see if if if the next game game will be more interesting.

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah, that makes sense, so you don't spend a ton of time on story or character development. It's just something you can sit on the toilet and play. but

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah, Yeah, again, like it could be like super interesting story, and you spend five years on it. and like, totally innovate. if nobody else done it. All the Enclave Games creations are really simple and the cormecanik was done like hundreds of times already,

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

so they are not original, but they are fun. That's that's the

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

most. like. it was fun for me to try that and release it and it's fun to play them for some of the folks, And that's that's totally enough. And if if publishers are coming to us and saying hey, we like this game, we want to license it, then it means it works and we can work more games and grow the catalogue.

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah, makes sense, my son. The games that he's into, Um, are much more involved and have much more of a story to him. So he's I think his favorite game is Under tail. He's also into Delta Roon, which is the sequel to that. And then there's one on the Intendo, and I can't remember what it's called, but he's way into that right. so yeah, I'm I'm aware that Toby Fox or some of the other people that have put those games together spent a good deal more time you know, working out. You know the play mechanics and the fighting Mac Chanics, and the movement mechanics and the story lines from the characters and things like that. Whereas yeah, you're putting something together that people you know. it gets progressively harder maybe as they advance levels. but at the end of the day at, it's not something that is that involved. as far as you know, engaging the player to play hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of the game.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah, exactly. I mean. it's good if if the game are engaging. If if you want to get back and play them,

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

I remember that I wanted to release games that I would play and get back to playing and that was kind of important, and if others would be enjoying them as well, that would be awesome. But like we didn't have like, I know, there are companies that will see what are the current trends, or like, copy some

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

of the native games Soon as possible, as quick as possible, and release them. Um, I guess it works for them because they are still in the business, But the whole thing is you can have totally different approaches. You can still find your niche and you can still make a living out of that.

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah, yeah, Cool. so I have one more thing. Well, two more things I'm going to ask and then we'll wrap up. The first one is is you have a game hackathon? and I think I saw the linked to game Deb J. S. on. It. Is that something that you run, or is that just something that you're affiliated with? I think it's the J. S. Thirteen K games Dot com,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

It's actually two. Even so the Jstatink Games is a competition that runs two thousand twelve every year, So we already had like eleventh editions or

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

something like that, So that's that's quite a challenge. Because you have to build a web game in Thirteen Kill Bites zipped, so not

 

Charles_Wood:

Wow,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

every game developer will be able. Web game developer will be able to participate, But apparently this was. I'm not going to do it. and they were like. So it got quite popular and many folks are trying that as a challenge on itself to build something in thirteen kilabites. So we really have a cold community around that. this is happening online in August. You have a whole month to build a game, so it's not like forty eight eight hours hackathon where you

 

Charles_Wood:

Okay,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

don't sleep It, Ptandorincredibles.

 

Charles_Wood:

I've done

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

but

 

Charles_Wood:

those.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

you can.

 

Charles_Wood:

They're kind of fun.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah, I did those as well so many global game jumps. So that's also cool where you are young

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

and like folks participating in Jay Tate in are like Okay, I'm going for a two week vacations with my family and I'm still getting back and I still can release something like.

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah,

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

I have a full time job and I have only evenings and I still can Do something or like other situations. And and you can actually like, There are folks who participate in in state in A. They have a whole month, but they select one weekend and spend time building something for that, So Jstertink is one thing, and the other is something new, where game Devjsjum which runs online in April, And this one is more open and more general, so as long as something is like, if it works, if it. If you can launch it in a browser, It's a web game, so it automatically qualifies Um. So it doesn't matter the size. It doesn't matter if you exported it from Unity or coded from scratch if you use Jaquaryfhaser or construct or whatever. Um, but you have thirteen days, so It's a little bit shorter, but it's still not forty eight hours, and the game Dejsjamis quickly getting quite popular. since it's fairly easy. At least it's easier done a few years ago to actually build something. so the amedfjsjum is more general, so I highly encourage you to try that first, and then J. t, ing A is quite the challenge. So if you want to challenge yourself, this is the old ultimate thing. And but the whole thing is what I mention mentioned, is that all the games from all the years are on the website, so you can play them, and the source code of every single entry is on Get Cup, so you can see how

 

Charles_Wood:

Oh, nice

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

people over the years created those games and take some inspiration from that. So game, Dejsjamiapril and jest games in a gust Are those two competitions that I'm organizing, Um, and tasted, in case, since two thousand, twelve game Devjsjam since twenty twenty.

 

Charles_Wood:

Cool. All right. Well, I'm just going to throw out. Shout out to game Deb dot, J. S. It's game D. J. S. Dot Comment is the domain just the news letters. Awesome. I haven't joined the discord, so I just saw that on the website. Um, but yeah, there's just so much cool stuff that comes through it, so I'm just going to shout that out. I'd like to get us into picks, and we do a self promosegment ahead of that, so I'm just going to move us over there before Do that. though, besides the websites we've already mentioned, are there other places for people to follow you or connect with you online?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

So there's my website and three are dot com, But it's basically me sharing all the other things I'm doing. So it's it's Clive Games Games game, which is the news letter Game jam. We also run the game survey since two thousand Twenty one, So it's quite new Thing we had, So game Defjsdotpl was like local meet ups in also, but the pandemic hit so we decided to skip it and I haven't returned yet, but yeah, there's a whole bunch of things around web games. If if you can find a topic about web games, some activity. I'm probably doing it. If you haven't found a website about it then it's probably it Probably failed. but I've tried that at some point anyway.

 

Charles_Wood:

Awesome All right, well, let's go and do the self promo stuff. We kind of let you do it already because you told everybody where to go. Find you A J. Do you have something hat yo're working on that people should know about?

 

AJ:

I can't think of it today.

 

Charles_Wood:

Okay,

 

AJ:

I mean,

 

Charles_Wood:

I'm

 

AJ:

I'm

 

Charles_Wood:

gonna

 

AJ:

working

 

Charles_Wood:

throw

 

AJ:

on

 

Charles_Wood:

in

 

AJ:

stuff,

 

Charles_Wood:

a few.

 

AJ:

but yeah,

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah, Yeah, so I'm still working on the stuff I mentioned last week. Basically it's the careers show, So kind of put your coding career. I'm also getting ready to launch another show called The Developers tool box. I think it's just developed a tool box, because I think that's the domain I wound up with. anyway. Developer tool box is going to be basically interviews with folks that Build Dove tools right, So it may be a commercial thing like sentry or rake on. It may be a free thing like V, S. code. Um, so anyway, just keep an ear out for that because well, we'll talk about what problems they solve. Why you might want to use them. how to get them set up And just make sure that you have everything you need to benefit from them. Um, and then canterpult. Your coding career is going to be career advice, and I talk to a couple of people a week, probably, and I answer their question, So that's most. What I'm going to base that on is just the coaching I'm doing and I guess if you want to get coaching, you can go to top end dot com slash coaching. All right, Let's go ahead, Nd do picks. I see a J's mouth moving, but don't know if he's talking to us because he's muted.

 

AJ:

Am I unmuted now?

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah,

 

AJ:

Okay because it said I was not muted, but okay anyway, there was one there. There was one thing. I created

 

Charles_Wood:

Okay,

 

AJ:

a tool called Alius Men, and what it does is manage your aliuses for you, and a lot of people just use one shell. And if you're using, I think if you're using Ssh, I think there's a way that when you create an alius from the command line, you can just have it save automatically, So wouldn't applied to. But if

 

Charles_Wood:

Yeah,

 

AJ:

you switch between Shells, For example, I switch between fish and Bash based on what I'm doing, but I want my aliuses to be present in both. Alius.

 

Charles_Wood:

Right,

 

AJ:

Man allows me to define an alius from the command line, rather than having to go and edit the file manually, And then it exports it to both shells, so I can have my alias and eat it too, And that's

 

Charles_Wood:

Cool

 

AJ:

up on Webinstill, out to have slash Alius man,

 

Charles_Wood:

Awesome. All right. Let's do picks a J what you got for us and picks.

 

AJ:

So I'm going to pick Ocremix. I have had very, very few problems with there with licensing issues. The only issues that I've had have been there was someone has a sub license of a song and they're making copyright claims against people who are using the song who also have a sub license, which I think is just kind of dirty, because if you're not the copyright holder, Then you shouldn't be making copyright claims based on a sub license, And then another one was a stupid parity account, which had re mixed, the song that I was using made a copyright claim against me, But other than that and that's and I've been streaming Ocremix for a year as the background music in my streams. Other than there was three instances and they all happened recently. I'm guessing with a recent tube algorithm copy match change to their their out O them. it's been. It's been wonderful, and re mix o c, re mix. You can select a tag so you can select high energy or low energy or ambend or chill, or classical or whatever, And there's a lot of tags where there's hundreds of songs, so you can stream for quite a few hours before you end up back in a loop where you're you know, listening to the same thing, and of course you can download the music you can put in your own music player. You can curate your own play lists. It's it's all some of its original. Some of it is Remixes of game music. I don't know how all the copyright works, but I'm guessing that since a lot of this is retro and a lot of it's exported from Japan, I think that the way the copyright works is that basically stuff that was made in the eighties in Japan is no longer under the same copyright protection from music or something. So there are a lot of scores that are really really similar. Their renditions their remixes. But there you know, they're basically the same thing The original tune. So you know you get some nice. Yu, get some nice original music. You get some nice remixes and so, and putting a link to their content policy, which is very generous, It's basically unless the primary purpose purpose of what you're doing is making music for money, you can use. This is Stream are safe, essentially, and then I will also pick. There's a company called Ballarini and they sell it Cosco, And you can also buy them on Amazon and stuff, Except to, I wouldn't get as good of a deal as you'll get at Casco, But they're only. They're one of those companies that's only in Cosco a couple of times a year, so you gotta catch them. I'm linking to their schedule, but these are the best non stick cook where it's the best non

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Ah,

 

AJ:

stick cook were set in the universe. As far as I know, it's it's real non stick. I don't. it does. It's not tough lawn. They have this thing that they call granitium, which I think is just a fancy way to make it sound like it's that the Avengers took granted in four. A new element out of it. What I think it really is is a extremely high tempapoxy that happens to have kind of a nano texture to it so that it doesn't doesn't at here, and you cook anything in

 

Charles_Wood:

Oh,

 

AJ:

it, You can burn stuff in it. We've had him for about six months and I do the dishes my wife cooks. I do the dishes. I have never

 

Charles_Wood:

Hm,

 

AJ:

yet had to take more than ten seconds to get one clean after after use. And then I am also going to pick

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Oh

 

AJ:

Two every day. Carry knives. If you have been looking for a great

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

yes,

 

AJ:

every day carry knife. See, I kind of got out of knives for a while because they're big and you can't

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Yeah,

 

AJ:

take them on the airplane, And I was traveling a lot for a while, but I got back into it and there are two knives that I found that I really really love. not just like, but the second one in particular I love, but the first one I loved until I found the second one. So there's There's this. It's a. It's a brand that they sell at Wall Mart called utility series. It's just kind of a no name brand, but they have. It's better than the Gerber. It's better than the blinkin On the other, It's better than the name brands that you think of when you think of outdoor. you know, every day carry stuff. It's just this no name brand called utility series and it's perfect. It clips on to your key chain. It's nice and small. It has a knife, scissors and a flat head And I think I think S it and it's It's just wonderful. It's light weight. It's my wife has it on her key chain about a bunch of them like I give them out as gifts. Now they're amazing and the other one is a kiche knife. Called It's by D C fans. And it's there. It's their kiche knife. It's just called Kiche knife, and it's got two knives on a straight blade and a serrated blade. It's actually a little bit bigger and every dimension than the utility series, but it feels smaller. It's got a square design, rather than the typical Swiss army knife looking round design. And it just it feels great and it feels like a real knife. It's not just a little pen knife. it's a short knife, but it's a real knife and I'm super excited about it. Absolutely love it. I think it's great. You know you're into that. Check it out.

 

Charles_Wood:

Awesome. Yeah, I just carry a box cutter around with me Anyway. Um, so my picks? I usually do a board game. pick, Um, we did board game, or we played some games with some friends last night and we played a game called Mysterium, And effectively what it is is you, Um, we played it. I think you played with six or seven people. But yeah, so, And it wasn't that complicated. It took a little bit to get it set up and figure out how to play it. You know, our friends have played as they kind of walked us through it. But it wasn't that complicated. They played with their game, their friend, their kids. Sorry and I think I think it took us an hour, maybe an hour, and a half, So the way that it works is you have one player who's the ghost, and then you have up to six players who are the psychics, and the psychics are trying to solve these murders, And so The you start out, and you have all of the people laid out their cards face up, and then you have the places and their cards face up, and then you have the motives for the murders and their cards face up, and each psychic is trying to solve the different murder, And so this ghost is sending the visions from the beyond, And so they have cards that just have pictures on them, right, and their kind of random. And so they have seven cards, and they can give one or two cards to each person to give them a clue as to which person, Because you pick the person first, and then you, you know, and then if you're trying to find the location which is next, then you know the cards are clues for the location. So when you get the person, you clear all your clues right, because those visions don't apply to the place. And then you know you kind of move your way up. And so anyway it was. It was really fun. Um, and what you're trying to do is Yeah, you're trying to solve your murder before the clock runs out. And then the other thing you do is you also have um, little tokens that you put on When when other people guess their person or their place or their motive, then you guess whether they're right or wrong, And so you have six tokens, And so you don't have to use them all at once. Um, and you get all your tokens back on the fourth round. So you you do that and you get points for that and then your points determine on the at the end after everybody solve their murder. If if somebody doesn't solve their murder, the game ends and you lose. Um. But if everybody you know solve their murder, then the ghost is trying to let people know which murder is their murder, And so they'll give three clues. to which of the six in our case it was five. Which of the five Mur Is is their murder, And the way you get the cards is by getting points by guessing who's right and wrong, or by solving your murder early. And so you use, you get the points, and so you get to see one, two or three of those clues. and then everybody guesses. And if the mAJ:ority of the psychics at the table pick the correct murder than you win. And so we lost at that point because everybody picked a different one. Um, So anyway, but it was fun. It was really, And so Mysterium H has a board game weight of one point nine, and as I've said over and over on this show, Two is kind of a gag casual game, so this one fits right in right, ait'something that you could pick up, And it's not so complicated that it's like I have a million pieces or this is really hard to figure. out. You know you play it through once and you know you got it. So anyway, I'm going to pick mysterium. I'm sorry, that was a little long winded, but it's fun game. Um, And then the other. The other picks I have this last week was just rough. Really close friends of mine lost their baby. She had a genetic defect and so it was kind of. I mean, we were all kind of hoping for the best and waiting for the worst, but I just and then I tweeted out there too. I was. you know, I was just like Hey, look, you know, just hold Of the people you care about. And and I really, I guess you get this perspective every so often right when you lose someone you care about. Are you? Um, you know you're You're there with people who have lost people. but um, you know, Just recognize that. Yeah, sometimes things aren't going your way, but you still have the people you love. You still have the you know, the work you love, and you know, just recognize some of the blessings in your life. as far as you know that You know, I mean I have five healthy kids. you know. Um, you know, my my marriage is great. You know, things are really good here And so yeah, do I have problems in my life? Yes, but to put it in perspective right, I get to continue on with. you know the things I love and the people I love, And so yeah, so just just kind of keep that in mind as you, um, you know, step out and see a problem and just recognize that In the grand scheme of things, At least for right now, I always tell people to. You know my season of life is good and you know their season of life is hard, and you know eventually it'll be my turn for something tough to go through to happen to me, But you know, appreciate those good times and hold on to the people you care about. All right, Andre. what are your? What are your picks?

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

So if I can, I will have a few. and if I can take from what we talked about, then I would encourage folks to first join the game Digs Jum, which will be running a Prilthirten twenty six, because we have a whole bunch of prizes, really cool experts, and it's literally open to anyone who would like To try like building their first game with from scratch with Charles script with any tools they can find. So that's that's the thing, cool prices and and really cool community between April and August and other months, as well, gamedvgsweekly news letter with whole bunch of interesting information everywhere In your in box every Friday. Some some tutorials, demos, games, et Cetera, the Staten Games competition In, if you want to challenge yourself more than the dam, if you want to see how difficult it is to squeeze a game into thirteen killobites, and the next I would like to give a shout out to Phasour creator Rich, Davy Is doing an awesome job building the tool that I'm using since two thousand, thirteen or fourteen. So that's that's big part of my professional career And since you mentioned the bird games, I'm gonna bring the one bird game that I'm enjoying Neroshima, Hicks, Which is a game from from Polish creators, and I'm running a fun site of Nowroshima Hicks, Since like two thousand Ten, the game was released in two thousand six or five, and it's really cool game. If you like post apocalyptic themes, then you have your own H, Q. an army fighting With opponents on Hexagonal Great, and since the inception there was like kind of fifteen or twenty gay army dons, So there was a whole bunch of content to be consumed. And whole thing is, it took us like eight years. Oh, actually build something for for Norosimahigs bird game, Us Web game, The creators, So we actually had some adons like Digital Dons to Physical birth game, so you could keep track of the tiles or do a bunch of stuff specifically for for the Bir game. And the whole thing is, The board game is also available as an application as Digital Game For is an Android. So if you don't have the opportunity to act to actually check the physical board game, you can down load that, play it and see if if you like it. I highly recommend that it's really enjoyable easy to learn hard to master, and there's a whole content, a lot of content to To have. So totally recommend that,

 

Charles_Wood:

Awesome? Um, All right. One last thing. I did want to also shout out about game dot courses, which is like I said, done by my friend Jason. So if you're looking to get into Unity, check your stuff out. because it's awesome. Um, and yeah, let's let's go ahead and wrap it up here. Thanks for coming. This was awesome.

 

Andrzej_Mazur:

Thanks for having me.

 

Charles_Wood:

All right, folks. Well until next time, max out.