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JSJ 397: Design Systems with Kaelig Deloumeau-Prigent

Guests :

Kaelig Deloumeau-Prigent

Hosts :

Published : Oct 03, 2019

Duration : 39 Minutes

Show Notes

Kaelig Deloumeau-Prigent is a self taught web developer from west France. He has worked for BBC, The Guardian, and The Financial Times in the UK. He has also worked in the US for SalesForce and currently works for Shopify on their Polaris design system. Shopify has multiple design systems, and Polaris is open source. Today the panel is talking about design systems and developer tooling around design systems.

To begin, Kaelig explains what a design system is. A design system is all of the cultural practices around design and shipping a product. It includes things like the words, colors, spacing grid system, and typography, plus guidance on how to achieve that in code. The panelists discuss what has made design systems so popular. Design systems have been around for a while, but became popular due to the shift to components, which has been accelerated by the popularity of React. The term design system is also misused by a lot of people, for it is much more than having a Sketch file.

Next, they talk about whether design systems fall under the jurisdiction of a frontend developer or web designers. Kaelig has found that a successful design system involves a little bit of everyone and shouldn’t be isolated to one team. They talk about what the developer workflow looks like in a design system. It begins with thinking of a few common rules, a language, and putting it into code. As you scale, design systems can become quite large and it’s impossible for one person to know everything. You either give into the chaos, or you start a devops practice where people start to think about how we build, release, and the path from designer’s brain to production.

The panelists then talk about how to introduce a design system into a company where there are cultural conflicts. Kaelig shares his experience working with SalesForce and introducing a design system there. They discuss what aspects of a design system that would make people want to use it over what the team is currently doing. Usually teams are thankful for the design system. It’s important to build a system that’s complete, flexible, and extensible so that you can adapt it to your team. A good design system incorporates ‘subatomic’ parts like the grid system, color palette, and typography, referred to as design tokens. Design systems enable people to take just the bits of the design system that are interesting to them and build the components that are missing more easily.

The conversation turns to the installation and upgrade process of a design system. Upgrading is left up to the customer to do on their own time in most cases, unless it’s one of the big customers. They talk about the role of components in upgrading a design system. Kaelig talks about the possibility of Shopify transitioning to web components. Kaelig shares some of his favorite tools for making a design system and how to get started making one. A lot of design teams start by taking a ton of screen shots and looking at all the inconsistencies.Giving them that visibility is a good thing because it helps get everyone get on the same page. The panelists talk about the role of upper management in developing components and how to prioritize feature development. Kaelig talks about what drives the decision to take a feature out. The two main reasons a feature would be removed is because the company wants to change the way things are done and there’s a different need that has arisen. The show concludes by discussing the possibility of a design system getting bloated over time. Kaelig says that Design systems takes some of the burden off your team, help prevent things from getting bloated, allow you to ship less code.

Panelists

Chris Ferdinandi
Aimee Knight
Steve Emmerich

With special guest: Kaelig Deloumeau-Prigent

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Special Guest: Kaelig Deloumeau-Prigent.

Transcript

Hey folks, I'm a super busy guy and you probably are too. You probably have a lot going on with kids going back to school, maybe some new projects at work. You've got open source stuff you're doing or a blog or a podcast or who knows what else, right? But you've got stuff going on and if you've got a lot of stuff going on, it's really hard to do the things that you need to do in order to stay healthy. And one of those things, at least for me, is eating healthy. So when I'm in the middle of a project or I just got off a call with a client or something like that, a lot of times I'm running downstairs, seeing what I can find that's easy to make in a minute or two, and then running back upstairs. And so sometimes that turns out to be popcorn or crackers or something little. Or if not that, then something that at least isn't all that healthy for me to eat. Uh, the other issue I have is that I've been eating keto for my diabetes and it really makes a major difference for me as far as my ability to feel good if I'm eating well versus eating stuff that I shouldn't eat. And so I was looking around to try and find something that would work out for me and I found these Factor meals. Now Factor is great because A, they're healthy. They actually had a keto line that I could get for my stuff and that made a major difference for me because all I had to do was pick it up, put it in the microwave for a couple of minutes and it was done. They're fresh and never frozen. They do send it to you in a cold pack. It's awesome. They also have a gourmet plus option that's cooked by chefs and it's got all the good stuff like broccolini, truffle butter, asparagus, so good. And, uh, you know, you can get lunch, you can get dinner. Uh, they have options that are high calorie, low calorie, um, protein plus meals with 30 grams or more of protein. Anyway, they've got all kinds of options. So you can round that out, you can get snacks like apple cinnamon pancakes or butter and cheddar egg bites, potato, bacon and egg, breakfast skillet. You know, obviously if I'm eating keto, I don't do all of that stuff. They have smoothies, they have shakes, they have juices. Anyway, they've got all kinds of stuff and it is all healthy and like I said, it's never frozen. So anyway, I ate them, I loved them, tasted great. And like I said, you can get them cooked. It says two minutes on the package. I found that it took it about three minutes for mine to cook, but three minutes is fast and easy and then I can get back to writing code. So if you want to go check out Factor, go check it out at factormeals. Head to factormeals.com slash JSJabber50 and use the code JSJabber50 to get 50% off. That's code JSJabber50 at factormeals.com slash JSJabber50 to get 50% off.

Hey folks, I'm a super busy guy and you probably are too. You probably have a lot going on with kids going back to school, maybe some new projects at work. You've got open source stuff you're doing or a blog or a podcast or who knows what else, right? But you've got stuff going on and if you've got a lot of stuff going on, it's really hard to do the things that you need to do in order to stay healthy. And one of those things, at least for me, is eating healthy. So when I'm in the middle of a project, or I just got off a call with a client or something like that. A lot of times I'm running downstairs, seeing what I can find that's easy to make in a minute or two, and then running back upstairs. And so sometimes that turns out to be popcorn or crackers or something little, or if not that, then something that at least isn't all that healthy for me to eat. Uh, the other issue I have is that I've been eating keto for my diabetes and it really makes a major difference for me as far as my ability to feel good if I'm eating well versus eating stuff that I shouldn't eat. And so, um, I was looking around to try and find something that would work out for me and I found these factor meals. Now factor is great because a, they're healthy. They actually had a keto, uh, line that I could get for my stuff. And that made a major difference for me because all I had to do is pick it up, put it in the microwave for a couple of minutes and it was done. Um, they're fresh and never frozen. They do send it to you in a cold pack, it's awesome. They also have a gourmet plus option that's cooked by chefs and it's got all the good stuff like broccolini, truffle butter, asparagus, so good. And you can get lunch, you can get dinner. They have options that are high calorie, low calorie, protein plus meals with 30 grams or more protein. Anyway, they've got all kinds of options. So you can round that out, you can get snacks like apple cinnamon pancakes or butter and cheddar egg bites, potato bacon and egg, breakfast skillet, you know obviously if I'm eating keto I don't do all of that stuff. They have smoothies, they have shakes, they have juices, anyway they've got all kinds of stuff and it is all healthy and like I said it's never frozen. So anyway I ate them, I loved them, tasted great and like I said you can get them cooked. It says two minutes on the package. I found that it took it about three minutes for mine to cook, but three minutes is fast and easy and then I can get back to writing code. So if you want to go check out Factor, go check it out at factormeals, head to factormeals.com slash JSJabber50 and use the code JSJabber50 to get 50% off. That's code JSJabber50 at factormeals.com slash JSJabber50 to get 50% off.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: Hey there, welcome to the JavaScript Jabber podcast. I'm Chris Ferdinand. Chuck is out this week, so I'm filling in as host. I am joined by panelist Amy Knight.

AIMEE_KNIGHT: Hey, hey from Nashville.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: Steve, is it Emmerich? I always screw up your last name, Steve. I'm so sorry.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Emmerich. It's the dev dad from sunny Naples, Florida.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: Awesome. And today we have as a guest, Kaleigh, whose last name I'm not even going to try and pronounce.

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Hi, I'm Kaleigh from Cupertino, California.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: Awesome. And Kalec, what are we talking about on today's show?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:We're talking about design systems and developer tooling around design systems.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: Awesome.

One of the things that I find that we talk a lot about at the different conferences and the different things that I'm working on is open source software and a lot of people have a lot of ideas around open source software, but we don't often think about the people who are building it and trying to maintain it. I had a friend, John, who came to me, he's been a guest on JavaScript Jabber a couple of times. He came and he actually said, Hey Chuck, I wish there was a show about sustaining open source. That really hit me where I live. So we all got together and we put together a show called Sustain Our Software. You can find it at sustainoursoftwarepodcast.com. and have conversations about how it can be sustained and how it can be maintained that we build our software on most of the software we're building is based on open source. And so it's important to us to have that maintained and have it taken care of. Come check it out. It's been really interesting to listen to the conversations that they're having from people who are working in it all the time and just hear what they have to say about it. Once again, that's at sustainoursoftwarepodcast.com.

STEVE_EMMERICH: For people who don't know who you are, can you tell us just a little bit about who you are, what you do and why this topic is interesting to you?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:I was born in the west of France. Most people listening to this podcast probably know where Normandy is. It's further west of that. I'm a self-taught web developer. I started making websites when I was young and then made it my job. In 2012, when I felt like making websites in French was a bit frustrating, I moved to the UK, ended up at the BBC, then the Guardian, and then the Financial Times. So lots of media organizations there occurrences there. Following that, I moved to the US with my dear wife and found a job at Salesforce where I worked on the Lightning Design System, which is also an open source design system. And about two years ago, I moved at Shopify to work on the Polaris design system.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Awesome. Awesome. So is Shopify's design system something that's open source or is that just something you guys use internally?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT: Yeah, correct. So we have multiple design systems, but the one people know and love is Polaris, which is you can find it at polaris.shopify.com. All of the code is hosted on GitHub. The reason why it's open source is because we have a partner community that is very invested in building applications on the Shopify platform. And we want to give them the ability to open issues, contribute to the code base, give us feature requests, and just even see how it's done so that they build trust towards the component library.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Awesome. So before we dive into all the nitty gritty details, just for anybody who's listening who might not know what a design system is, can you maybe at a high level kind of explain what that's all about?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Absolutely. So people listening to the show probably have heard of component libraries. There's a lot of them out there, but the most well-known is Bootstrap. And it happens to be a small part of a design system. If you… If you take it at a higher level, a design system is all of the cultural practices around design and shipping a product from what the words should be in that product to the colors, to the spacing grid system, and all the patterns, the experience patterns that your users are going to encounter. Plus a little bit of guidance on how to achieve that in code. So it's kind of a melting pot of all these things that have to do with design, development, content strategy, and yeah, general user experience stuff.

AIMEE_KNIGHT: I feel like design systems are kind of like a big buzzword right now and I mean I see the value in them but what do you think has like caused this to be such a popular thing? Is it how we're componentizing their front ends? Is that what it is?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:I would say a lot of it, you're right, yep, a lot of it has to do with the shift to components. Design systems existed way before that was a thing. So I would say React probably accelerated the rise of component libraries because it's so easy to think in components in React. You can extrapolate and call that a design system. And some people have a sketch UI kit with all our components or Figma UI kit or you name it. And a React component library that are somewhat in sync and they're just going to call that a design system because it's like, it's a few pieces of a design system. So it is definitely a buzzword. It's also misused by a lot of people who think, I just have a sketch file. That's my design system. I don't think I agree with that. I think you need a little bit more to that. Um, I think content strategy, for example, is a big thing that's often overlooked. And, um, yeah, it is definitely a buzzword. Yeah.

AIMEE_KNIGHT: So how much do you think of like design system falls in the realm of a front end developer versus somebody who is just more, I don't know, like I guess you would call them, I don't know. There's such a fine line between what I would call like a front end engineer, which to me is somebody who like works on the build and writes a lot of JavaScript. And then I would say more like a front end, like designer or something would, I don't know, front end developer, somebody who writes like more CSS, like. I don't know. I kind of, whenever I think of design systems, I think of more like, just like it's more of something that a designer would work on, like somebody who just writes CSS.

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Yeah, it's a super interesting topic because the teams I've seen who are leaning too much towards one or the other discipline are typically very biased in the way they build and deliver. So if a team, if a design systems team is very on the let's say back end of JavaScript. So more like interested in webpack and the React internals and all these things. They're gonna deliver stuff that's way lower level and not necessarily very design driven. And then there's teams who are only designers and only they are struggling to build that gap between their designs and production. If you want a really successful design system, you need a bit of everyone. And they need to communicate a lot and get on the same page decide of a common language. I really like when designers and developers sit down together to think about what the API of components should be. I think that's a really fruitful type of conversation you can have. And if you only have developers or if you only have designers, that's not going to happen very well. And then the gap between the idea of a designer and what's actually in production is going to be even bigger. So that's kind of my take on this. Does that answer your question, Amy?

AIMEE_KNIGHT: Yeah, I think so. And I don't know. I guess maybe where I feel like you're going with this too is kind of like the most successful projects I've worked on. The person who's in charge of design is very well versed in UX. And that's when design and dev can work really well together. But now we're kind of deving away from design systems. So we can circle back around.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Well, one thing that would be. interesting to explore is what the developer workflow looks like in a design system. I know you actually had that as kind of a talking point for this episode, so I'd love to hear a little bit more about your thoughts on that and what that looks like.

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Yeah. So when you build a design system, you start off by thinking about a few common rules, the language around the design, and then you try to port it to code. And when you start porting it to code, the first few components, it works really well, everyone on the same page and as you scale, your design systems becomes this behemoth with no one really having a grasp over the entire system. Especially from the code perspective, you have so many components, so many test suites, so much stuff going on that it's impossible for just one person to have a complete architectural overview of literally every detail. And what you end up doing is that you either give up to the chaos, which hopefully doesn't happen in your design system team, but you start building a practice of kind of a DevOps practice in the design systems team, where people think a lot about tooling and how we build, not just building stuff and churning components and, but also how do we release? What is the contribution model? What is the path of an idea from the designer's brain to production and what other parts where code and automation can help. And that goes a lot with, that has a lot to do with the way your stack works, but also your versioning controls works. So if you use GitHub or GitLab or Oracle or your own deployment strategy, this all has a big impact on overall way of building stuff for your design system.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Kind of sort of related, maybe potentially a little bit not. I used to work at a company that had about four or five different products that were all under the same product suite. So if you bought into, it was like a SaaS company. And if you paid for a subscription, you got all these different products, but they were all separate products because they all came in with the exception of one of them through acquisition. It was one of those, like we have a core product, we're gonna extend it with some other stuff that we acquired from some other companies and stuff. And so with these four products that had very distinct looks and feel that they were trying to maybe kind of bring together through an internal design system with some components and some shared things, basically trying to eventually migrate everybody over to using the same patterns, even though the products were maintained by different teams. Do you have any experience working in an environment where you need to get a design system adopted by different working teams and if so, any recommendations around kind of the cultural challenges there? One of the things I found both in a past job and even in a more recent kind of project I worked on, like getting people to break from this is how we do things today to using this new tool is, I've found, much harder than the technical logistics of the system itself. It's the like the cultural change piece. I don't know if you have any experience with that. If not, tell me to shut up and we can move on. But I don't know. It's something I find really interesting because it's so hard to get people to do things sometimes.

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:So at Salesforce, we were exactly in this situation where the design system was mostly built with the lens of what was called a sales cloud and with a very specific stack. But the decision was made to only build components using HTML and CSS. So they would be portable to any stack out there. It turns out, Salesforce has a habit of acquiring companies, especially a few years back, where another week another acquisition was coming kind of thing. And they would be asked to use the design system. And thankfully, they could pretty easily with just simple CSS classes. That was a good way to evangelize the design system itself, or at least the component library. Now from a cultural perspective, it depends so much on the company itself, the politics that govern it. I would say telling developers is not hard, but telling product managers that they are going to have to prioritize that over their original roadmap is a bit of a struggle sometimes. So yeah, I don't know that's above my pay grade to convince these people.

STEVE_EMMERICH: I guess another consideration for me is like, so is there anything, coming at this from another angle, is there anything about a design system that would make people want to use it over what they already do today? Or, you know, like when you are building out a design system, how do you ensure that it's going to work for as many folks internally as possible? You know, one of the things I've seen is kind of a resistance to this as well. You know, your design system is missing these eight things that we need for our product. How do we build those in a way that it actually integrates? It's easier for us to just go do our own thing. Like forget this, you know? Like, so how do you like that kind of thing? Like, what do you, how do you build a system that's complete, flexible for things you haven't thought of, extensible for kind of future use cases, that kind of thing.

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Yeah, so there's two parts to that question. The first one is, what are the parts of the design system that would convince someone to use it? And that's really down to the culture of the company. Most companies don't have a strong accessibility and performance and CSS culture. Most teams actually kind of are bad at these things. And so they're thankful that the design system, hopefully, if that was your case, but in the design system teams have worked on, there was definitely a culture of really good CSS architecture, performance in mind, and accessibility first. So teams adopting that new framework are extremely thankful. They see things they're not good at, and all of a sudden it's put on a golden platter for them. So they would instantly like the idea. Now, the second part of your question was more around what are the parts that are missing and how do we build something that is integrating well with this whole ecosystem. This is where the design system needs to have very flexible parts to it so that composability is possible and it's not an all or nothing. You can have some kind of team specific or product specific components that can easily be made, easily be built. And to do that, typically you are going to need things like what is the grid system? What is the color palette? What is the typography? So that you can take those little subatomic parts of your design system and take them out, put them into your own components. And the, this idea of having subatomic part of your design system, again, colors, spacing, typography, et cetera. These are called design tokens. This is a name that was coined by Salesforce by Gina and John. who worked on the Lightning Design System. And it's been growing as an idea just because of what you were mentioning so that people don't have an all or nothing situation. They can take just the bits of the design system that's interesting to them and then build the components that are missing more easily.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Awesome. And I'm sorry for just kind of like rapid fire throwing questions that you've found out. This is a topic that I always find really interesting. One of the other things that kind of comes to mind is, and this is maybe a little into the weeds, but like the installation and upgrade process. So you've got a design system, you discover an accessibility issue or a bug. How do you make sure that all the people who are using that, you know, like you issue a fix, like is there some sort of, what are some best practices, I guess, around kind of making sure those fixes get deployed to folks who need them, people who are using this project. Is it a CDN? Is it part of like an NPM installation process, something else, some hybrid model?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Semantic versioning is super useful in that case. Design systems that worked on were all deployed to NPM or Bower or some sort of package management system. And then it was up to the consumers to upgrade at their own pace. But when there's a hotfix, like a security or big really important accessibility fix. Design systems typically have, I would say, maximum, a handful, but typically it's one or two main consumers, like main code bases that are capturing the most traffic for the company. For example, at Shopify, it's our code base called Shopify, Shopify. It's our really big Ruby monolith. And then we have what we call Shopify web, which is our React layer on top of that. And so we're going to be meeting expectations with them and actually be proactive and push our fixes to them. But most other parts of the company, they just upgrade when they want. Yeah, we just count on people to do their duty to just stare and upgrade as their roadmap allows. So does that answer your question?

STEVE_EMMERICH: Yeah, yeah, it does. I'm also wondering if components help here at all? if I'm using hard-coded HTML and the markup fundamentally needs to change, that's a big system-wide change I need to make. Whereas with a component, some sort of custom component that bakes in some markup for me, that becomes a little bit less of an issue, potentially. I don't know if that's something you guys think of as you do this, or you just use components for other reasons.

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Yes. 100 percent what you were saying. So the pros and cons of having HTML versus well, HTML and CSS versus React components or web components is that if the internals of a component change, people using the HTML version of them have to update all of their class names or even mockup structure, and that's a really tough upgrade process and that's what Salesforce was doing and now they're moving everything to web components. It's a huge company wide kind of cultural change at this point that we're looking at at Shopify as well. But at Shopify, we took the component road. And so we ship React components. And we have a fallback for people who still want to use our HTML and CSS. But this is not something we support. It's kind of a fallback. You're kind of on your own at this point. We don't even give you release notes on what class names changed or whatever. Here's a fallback. It's nice of us kind of thing to provide it. But the upgrade path is not going to be as clear as with React components, whereas at React components, it's so much better. We can even issue console logs. So we have a format for console logs that we follow that tells you this is deprecated. In the next version, we're going to remove it. In the meantime, you should replace this with that. And so the developer, in their console, they can actually see what they need to change for their code to upgrade better big major version is not going to completely break that code.

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AIMEE_KNIGHT: So I want to ask a question. This is kind of steering away again from design systems, but you said that you're moving to web components. So are you going to be using React alongside web components? Are you slowly like moving away from React completely in favor of web components? How do web components fit in?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT: So we're starting an initiative internally. It's very early days. This is not on the roadmap, like 100% sure we're moving to web components, but we want to be prepared in case we want to make that switch. And we want to see what is the opportunity that we might be missing. I would say that currently the developer workflow and the developer tooling around React is so good that it's hard for us to imagine moving to web components now. Also, there's a lot of unanswered questions with web components when it comes to accessibility or server-side rendering and state management. Yeah, it's really, really tough.

AIMEE_KNIGHT: Because this was actually something that came up where I work and kind of sounds like a lot of the same things that y'all are experiencing and questions that y'all had are the same questions that I had. So that was interesting to me.

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Yeah, but we'd encourage design systems teams to at least keep that keep that on the back burner. And we tend to use hack days for that purpose to do a quick exploration of what would our most representative components look like if we were building them with web components in mind. Awesome, thanks.

STEVE_EMMERICH: When you're going through the process of making this design system, what kind of tooling do you use? Like I knew you used Sketch and then CSS. Do you have like testing frameworks you recommend or anything like that, depending on the framework you want to go with?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Yeah, so for the developer workflow, if you're using React, I think Storybook is a really good place to build stuff. It's got hot reloading. You can see the entire list of your components. It's got really good tooling around it. So for example, you can get live accessibility check of your component. And Storybook happens to be plugging in with a lot of cloud providers to, for example, do visual regression testing between versions or between one of my favorite things is when you open a pull request in Polaris, you automatically get the deployment of that storybook that anyone looking at the pull request can click and we get automated visual regression testing as well. And I love that because it just gives us a list of, hey, these are the pixels that changed across the entire component library. It makes developers way more confident in the changes they're shipping that when they change the button, it changes exactly those other components and they didn't forget anything. So that's kind of the basics I would recommend. And aside from that, we use the classics, ESLint with a ton of custom configs so that we don't shoot ourselves in the foot when it comes to rendering methods and just random component life cycles, best practices. We also have a lot of accessibility, ESLint roles enabled. What can I think of? And other than that, we use Jest and Enzyme for testing components and internals of components. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking about mostly.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Cool, yeah, view storybook a little bit, it's pretty neat. When you go through the process of making this design system, how do you kind of start and work your way towards the actual building of the components? Like if I wanted to make one for my company, what would be the best way to start it?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:I would say it depends if you already have set of components in your code base. If so, just install storybook, create a few stories, and there you go, you have a component library that you can show designers. And then designers will know, oh, so that's what's in production. That gives them some sort of inventory and you can have a conversation, sit down with the design team and discuss what parts should be fixed and what parts should make it from the codebase into their designs. Because sometimes there's a discrepancy, but when you don't have a design system between production and their design files, and that's kind of what this might fix to have this conversation showing them everything that's in production. A lot of design teams actually start like that. They go in the product, they take a ton of screenshots, and they look at, I mean, it's a UI inventory, basically and they go around and they look at all the inconsistencies. And typically you're going to find three, four different models, 10 different buttons, all that kind of stuff is just buried in the code and they don't have visibility on it. So giving them that visibility, if you can, is great. And the whole goal of this is to be on the same page with everyone in between UX and between engineering. And so that's kind of where I would start to have a discussion with designers.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Sounds good. Do you think there's a role for a person to be that kind of mediation between the designer and the actual developer of the components? Or is it, should it just be like a conversation between the two of them?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:From what I've seen, it is a role that's often taken by people who have a sense of engineering, but are also kind of designers. So either designers who code or coders who design a bit, they can talk to both parties with all the confidence that's needed to make that happen. Not everyone is lucky to have this happen in an official capacity. So you see a lot of skunkworks kind of projects that are emerging by just the fact that people are super passionate about this and just make it happen.

STEVE_EMMERICH: How do you prioritize feature development? So Obviously, this is not like a one and done kind of thing. The product, the design system will evolve with the organization and that sort of thing. So it's just kind of from an operations perspective. How do you, you know, how do you figure out what to focus on next with the design system, how to evolve it, when to maybe even deprecate features that are no longer relevant or useful? Like, what does that process look like?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Are you talking in terms of product features versus taking care of the design system or inside the design system

STEVE_EMMERICH: I'm thinking like, inside the design system

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:okay, gotcha

STEVE_EMMERICH: Yeah, components from the design system itself. You know, like we didn't have accordions, but we need them now because, you know, Team X that uses this product is asking for them, or we've noticed a lot of people who use it have kind of hacked their own into it, so we should come up with something standardized, like that sort of thing.

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Yeah, that's actually a very good indicator. If people have been hacking this together too many times, and it's maybe not accessible, repeated effort and lots of testing required and duplicated. That's not good. So obviously that's a good, a very good indicator that your team should probably think about integrating it into the design system. Let me think.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Do you ever deprecate features? Like have you ever seen that happen in a design system where a component goes away?

KALEIG: Yes, not components, but mostly props. Yes, or types.

STEVE_EMMERICH: What drives that? So what's behind the decision to remove something that was previously there?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:There's two things. There's one which is technologically, you want to move on from one way of doing things to another. So for example, when React came up with hooks, we decided that our roadmap should include moving everything to hooks. So we are still in the process of doing that. And we just released Polaris React v4, and it sets us up for success with hooks and the future of what React will look like. Now that meant that we had to prioritize moving all our code to hooks instead of component classes in many, many places. And that meant that we had less time to build new components or to do other things like supporting existing consumers. The other reason why you might want to do deprecation is there's just a different need. Recently, one of our dependencies changed drastically and we had to adapt to the way Shopify does things now in that realm so,

STEVE_EMMERICH: you mentioned the thing about not deprecating components. So does the design system run to any danger of kind of over bloating itself over time? I think about like you mentioned bootstrap at the very start here, you know, like bootstrap foundation, they become these like just these behemoths over time, where you're loading 30, 40 kilobytes of CSS for like a one page brochure site, or like, you know, design systems designed to work with a more robust app. Do you have that same danger, or is there something about the way those work under the hood now where, you know, there's less a chance of, or they, at the bare minimum, they're not creating more bloat, they potentially help with it.

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Ideally, they would help with it in the sense that let's say every team in your product is building their own button. And not only they have to write the code, but they also have to write the tests and write documentation for it. And let's say you multiply this by 10. Not only that's going to add to your bundle size, but also it's going to add to your, uh, your, your test suite, which is going to take longer to run and you create more dependencies and more stuff not only for your users, but again, for you as a developer team. Let's say you have a design system now, that design system is going to take the burden away from those 10 teams to build that component. And instead you have one button, they can all use the same. Hopefully your design system is pretty well configured to take advantage of all the new webpack features or rollup or whatever you're using and when they include the button, they will only get the code in their bundle that they need. Let's say those 10 teams are using the same button. Now instead of 10 times the amount of code, they have it once. Now, let's say a team does not or a product does not use the majority of your components. They only want, let's say, the login form team. And they only need some text, some boxes, maybe some forms, obviously, a button, and they don't want to have to import all of your accordions or your carousels or whatever you have in your library. Well, again, I'm just going to go back to the way you build your Compat library. If it integrates well with Webpack, then you get tree shaking for free and people can import just the modules that they need. And yeah, that's kind of what modern JavaScript tooling is giving us. And I love that because you don't have to ship those behemoths. And again, an all or nothing situation happens where people don't want your design system because it just makes your app way slower at boot time at least. So I'm glad you brought that up because performance is super important.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Cool.

One of the things that I have as a goal for devchat.tv is to cover technologies that are up and coming, things that we're probably going to have to deal with on a more regular basis in the future. Some of these include AI, VR, and one of them is blockchain. So I reached out to one of the experts that I knew, Gregory McCubbin, and we pulled together a few other people and we've started a podcast called Adventures in Blockchain. So if you're looking at blockchain as something that you may wanna work in, something that you're curious about learning more about, or something that you just wanna keep current on until you have the opportunity to make a career jump and go over and work in blockchain and crypto, then definitely check out Adventures in Blockchain You can find it at adventures in blockchain.io.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: Let's move to, um, to picks Steve or Amy. Do you guys want to, one of you want to start us off?

STEVE_EMMERICH: I can start if you want.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: That'd be swell Steve.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Thanks. Yeah. So my dad pick this week is Cedar work play beds. I just got one of these for my son. It has a climbing wall and a slide. It's a bunk bed. He's gone crazy about it. He's telling all of his friends. He's wants to invite everybody over to play on this bed.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: This looks awesome. Yeah. I kind of want one of these in my room.

STEVE_EMMERICH: Yeah, that was my first thought. I was like, I can just get rid of my bed and get this instead. Oh, this is rad. Yeah, so he loves that. And then my other pick is gonna be Azure's container instances. I've been playing with that a little bit, trying to run Minecraft servers. So that's been pretty interesting. I'm liking it a lot. Next thing I'm gonna hit is the Azure functions, see how they differ from like AWS and stuff those are my picks.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: Nice. Amy?

AIMEE_KNIGHT: Sure. So it's been a while since I've picked something from there's all these like different awesome lists. So this one is awesome actions for GitHub. And it's just a list of like a ton of different ones. So I'm going to go with that for this week. And that'll be it for me.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: Awesome. So on my end, I have a couple this week. The first, I should have mentioned this last week, but I just finally got a chance to watch the free meek mini documentary series on Amazon about rapper Meek Mill and his kind of in and out 10 year legal battle with prison system and probation. If you like hip hop, if you're an obnoxious social justice warrior like I am, you'll find it really interesting. If you're neither of those things, it's probably not going to be your cup of tea, but I really, really enjoyed it. The soundtrack is awesome too. If you like hip hop and you like Meeks music, then it's just, it's a really well done documentary series. On the developer front, my buddy Andrew Boorstein linked me to this really awesome article by Bastion Aljir, I'm almost certainly mispronouncing his name, called Simplicity 2 that talks about how our...Ironically, since we're talking about lots of dependencies in the design system, but how our reliance on build processes and dependencies makes maintaining the work that we do really hard, especially if you don't touch it for a little while. So if you step away from a project and then come back to it, you suddenly find that everything is broken. And the first thing you need to do before you can actually just update that little bit of CSS that you wanna change is get your designs or your build system working again. Um, and how maybe the house of cards we built around our development process isn't all sunshine and roses. Not that there aren't some benefits, but that maybe potentially the costs slightly outweigh those benefits. So people who know kind of me and my particular brand of web development won't find it at all surprising that, that, um, this article resonated with me, but, um, it really, really did. So, uh, Kayleigh, do you have any picks for us?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:So I've got two picks. Back to what you were just mentioning, I am gonna pick Dependabot. It's a company that was just acquired by GitHub and it opened Pulse with pull requests to update your dependencies. And you can, with a GitHub action, you can auto-approve the PRs of the bot, which then knows to merge it into your code base. So your code base essentially stays up to date when it comes to dependencies. And that's lovely. And so we use it on a few projects at Shopify. And I love it because I used to be doing that manually and it's not fun. My second pick is I've been building command line tools over the years and it's never been fun. Actually, it kind of was miserable experience, especially with getting the console output to look like something. So you could use stuff like chalk and, but you always have to play with the process STD standard output and blah blah blah. And it's not fun. So the other day I was looking for how to build a command line tool that really looks nice. I stumbled upon this thing called Ink by Vadim Demedes. So I'm going to post the link in the show notes. But this made my life so much easier. And for the first time, I felt like building a command line interface was nice and pleasurable. So thank you, Vadim.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: Awesome. So, Kalec, thank you so much for being on the show. This was really great. If people want to learn more about you, visit some of the cool stuff you're building, where can they find you?

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT: Kalec on Twitter, K-A-L-I-G. And that's pretty much where I post and rant about web development, design systems, design tokens, you name it.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: Awesome. We'll make sure we get a link to that in the show notes for everybody. Cool. So everybody, thank you so much for listening. Steve, Amy, thanks for being on the panel this week. Kaleigh, thanks for joining us. And we'll chat with everybody again real soon. Cheers.

KAELIG_DELOUMEAU PRIGENT:Thank you for having me.

AIMEE_KNIGHT: Bye.

CHRIS_FERDINANDI: See you later.

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JavaScript Jabber 112 JSJ Refactoring JavaScript Apps Into a Framework with Brandon Hays
JavaScript Jabber 227 JSJ Fostering Community Through React with Benjamin Dunphy, Berkeley Martinez, and Ian Sinnott
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 304: React: The Big Picture
JavaScript Jabber 243 JSJ Immutable.js with Lee Byron
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 401: Hasura with Tanmai Gopal
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 345: Azure Devops with Donovan Brown LIVE at Microsoft Ignite
JavaScript Jabber 242 JSJ Visual Studio and .NET with Maria Naggaga
JavaScript Jabber 066 JSJ Transitioning to JavaScript
JavaScript Jabber 235 JSJ JavaScript Devops and Tools with Donovan Brown and Jordan Matthiesen
JavaScript Jabber RPC Resurgence: From Client-Server Applications to Next.js and Meta Frameworks - JSJ 607
JavaScript Jabber 241 JSJ Microsoft Docs with Dan Fernandez
JavaScript Jabber The MaxCoders Guide To Finding Your Dream Developer Job
JavaScript Jabber 240 JSJ Visual Studio Code with Chris Dias
JavaScript Jabber TC39 and Upcoming Proposals for ECMAScript (PART 2) - JSJ 533
JavaScript Jabber A Deep Dive Into Some Nooks and Crannies of JavaScript - JSJ 535
JavaScript Jabber 239 JSJ Vets Who Code with Jerome Hardaway
JavaScript Jabber JSJ BONUS: Web Apps on Linux with Jeremy Likness and Michael Crump
JavaScript Jabber 230 JSJ Node at Capital One with Azat Mardan
JavaScript Jabber 236 JSJ Interview with Mads Kristensen from Microsoft Ignite
JavaScript Jabber Data Oriented Programming with Yehonathan Sharvit - JSJ 481
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 478: Browser Standards Rampage: Can We Have Nice Things?
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 269 Reusable React and JavaScript Components with Cory House
JavaScript Jabber Building a Custom Front-end Framework - JSJ 633
JavaScript Jabber 229 JSJ Elm with Richard Feldman
JavaScript Jabber Creating Your Community with Brett Haralson - JAVASCRIPT 515
JavaScript Jabber 206 JSJ PostCSS with Ben Briggs
JavaScript Jabber 224 JSJ Cypress.js with Brian Mann
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 459: Codota Tabnine and the Rise of Ai-powered Developer Tooling with Kyle Simpson PT 2
JavaScript Jabber Power Tips for Browser Dev-Tools with Craig Buckler - JSJ 492
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 334: “Web Performance API” with Dan Shappir
JavaScript Jabber Things JavaScript Developers Should Know, Part 2 - JSJ 485
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 476: Understanding Search Engines and SEO (for devs) - Part 1
JavaScript Jabber 215 JSJ ChakraCode with Guarav Seth Live from Microsoft Build 2016
JavaScript Jabber 214 JSJ Pebble with Heiko Behrens and François Baldassari
JavaScript Jabber Front End Architecture - JSJ 522
JavaScript Jabber 089 JSJ The Node Security Project with Adam Baldwin
JavaScript Jabber BONUS: How to Crush Your Biggest Goals in 2021
JavaScript Jabber 210 JSJ The 80/20 Guide to ES2015 Generators with Valeri Karpov
JavaScript Jabber 192 JSJ IoT with Peter Hoddie
JavaScript Jabber 199 JSJ Visual Studio Code with Chris Dias and Erich Gamma
JavaScript Jabber 204 JSJ Free Code Camp with Quincy Larson
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 312: Hygen with Dotan Nahum
JavaScript Jabber 203 JSJ Aurelia with Rob Eisenberg
JavaScript Jabber 202 JSJ DoneJS + CanJS with Justin Meyer
JavaScript Jabber 111 JSJ The Ember.js Project with Erik Bryn
JavaScript Jabber 201 JSJ Security with Troy Hunt
JavaScript Jabber Unveiling Chrome DevTools: Network Monitoring, Cache Debugging, and Beyond - JSJ 623
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 356: Build Websites Like It's 2005 with Keith Cirkel
JavaScript Jabber 198 JSJ 2015 Recap and 2016 Predictions
JavaScript Jabber Embracing Angular's Evolution with Santosh Yadav - JSJ 631
JavaScript Jabber JSJ BONUS EPISODE: Observables and RxJS Live with Aaron Frost
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 319: Winamp2-js with Jordan Eldredge
JavaScript Jabber Bun.js with Jarred Sumner - JSJ 584
JavaScript Jabber Practical Strategies for Web Optimization: Using Chrome DevTools - JSJ 635
JavaScript Jabber 195 JSJ Rollup.js with Rich Harris and Oskar Segersvärd
JavaScript Jabber Stories From The Trenches - JSJ 556
JavaScript Jabber 225 JSJ Functional Programming with John A. De Goes
JavaScript Jabber An Unconventional Journey into Coding ft. Sam Sycamore - JSJ 496
JavaScript Jabber 193 JSJ Electron with Jessica Lord and Amy Palamountain
JavaScript Jabber 191 JSJ Stripe with Craig McKeachie
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 290: Open Source Software with Dirk Hohndel - VMWare Chief Open Source Officer
JavaScript Jabber 186 JSJ NativeScript with TJ VanToll and Burke Holland
JavaScript Jabber Hydrogen and Oxygen - JSJ 539
JavaScript Jabber 183 JSJ Should I go to college?
JavaScript Jabber Building and Distributing PWAs: Tools, Techniques, and Insights - JSJ 638
JavaScript Jabber 182 JSJ RxJS with Matthew Podwysocki
JavaScript Jabber 181 JSJ The Evolution of Flux Libraries with Andrew Clark and Dan Abramov
JavaScript Jabber Do You Have Dev FOMO? ft. Yoav Ganbar - JSJ 510
JavaScript Jabber 178 JSJ Tech Education and The Business of Running Front End Masters with Marc Grabanski
JavaScript Jabber 177 JSJ UI Validation with Oren Rubin
JavaScript Jabber 175 JSJ Elm with Evan Czaplicki and Richard Feldman
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 469: The Case for JavaScript Iterators and Generators, part 2
JavaScript Jabber 174 JSJ npm 3 with Rebecca Turner and Forrest Norvell
JavaScript Jabber 232 JSJ GunDB and Databases with Mark Nadal
JavaScript Jabber 172 JSJ NodeSchool with Jason Rhodes
JavaScript Jabber High-Performance Networking: Key Resources and Tools for Web Developers - JSJ 637
JavaScript Jabber 168 JSJ The Future of JavaScript with Jafar Husain
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 268 Building Microsoft Office Extensions with JavaScript with Tristan Davis and Sean Laberee
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 306: The Framework Summit with Joe Eames
JavaScript Jabber 167 JSJ TypeScript and Angular with Jonathan Turner and Alex Eagle
JavaScript Jabber 014 JSJ SVG and Data Visualization with Chris Bannon
JavaScript Jabber TC39 and Upcoming Proposals for ECMAScript (PART 1) - JSJ 532
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 477: Understanding Search Engines and SEO (for devs) - Part 2
JavaScript Jabber 166 JSJ New Relic with Wraithan and Ben Weintraub
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 316: Visual Studio Code with Rachel MacFarlane and Matt Bierner LIVE at Microsoft Build
JavaScript Jabber 038 JSJ Jasmine with Justin Searls
JavaScript Jabber BONUS: Relationships Matter Most
JavaScript Jabber 047 JSJ Specialized vs Monolithic with James Halliday and Tom Dale
JavaScript Jabber 042 JSJ CSS and CSS Superset Languages
JavaScript Jabber 163 JSJ Flow with Jeff Morrison and Avik Chaudhuri
JavaScript Jabber 176 JSJ RethinkDB with Slava Akhmechet
JavaScript Jabber 153 JSJ Careers for Junior Developers with Aimee Knight
JavaScript Jabber 157 Moving Your Rendering Engine to React with Amit Kaufman and Avi Marcus
JavaScript Jabber 154 JSJ Raygun.io Error Reporting and Workflow with John-Daniel Trask
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 427: How to Start a Side Hustle as a Programmer with Mani Vaya
JavaScript Jabber 152 JSJ GraphQL and Relay with Nick Schrock and Joe Savona
JavaScript Jabber MeteorJS ft. Filipe Névola - JSJ 506
JavaScript Jabber 150 JSJ OIMs with Richard Kennard, Geraint Luff, and David Luecke
JavaScript Jabber How to Check Your Application Security featuring Liran Tal - JSJ 493
JavaScript Jabber 148 JSJ i.cx and EveryBit.js with Matt Asher and Dann Toliver
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 386: Gatsby.js with Chris Biscardi
JavaScript Jabber WebAuthn With Dan Moore - JSJ 562
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 406: Security in Node
JavaScript Jabber What's New with Elm? ft. Lindsay Wardell - JSJ 527
JavaScript Jabber 147 JSJ io.js with Isaac Schleuter and Mikeal Rogers
JavaScript Jabber Where is JAMstack and Dev Tooling Headed Today? - Putting JetPacks on Developers ft. Tejas Kumar - JSJ 514
JavaScript Jabber 146 JSJ React with Christopher Chedeau and Jordan Walke
JavaScript Jabber BONUS: Measuring Apps and Entrepreneurship with John-Daniel Trask
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 462: The Ultimate Guide to JavaScript Testing with Lucas da Costa
JavaScript Jabber Wix Velo with Yoav Abrahami - JSJ 558
JavaScript Jabber 144 JSJ Marionette.js 2.0 with Sam Saccone
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 340: JavaScript Docker with Julian Fahrer
JavaScript Jabber 143 JSJ Teaching Programming and Computer Science with Pamela Fox
JavaScript Jabber 141 JSJ Firefox OS with Jason Weathersby
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 267 Node 8 with Mikeal Rogers, Arunesh Chandra, and Anna Henningsen
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 350: JavaScript Jabber Celebrates Episode 350!
JavaScript Jabber 139 JSJ The Mozilla Developer Network with Les Orchard and David Walsh
JavaScript Jabber Episode 500 Celebration! - JSJ 500
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 352: Caffeinated Style Sheets: Supporting High Level CSS with JavaScript with Tommy Hodgins
JavaScript Jabber 106 JSJ Protractor with Julie Ralph
JavaScript Jabber 138 JSJ {Track:js} with Todd Gardner
JavaScript Jabber 135 JSJ Smallest Federated Wiki with Ward Cunningham
JavaScript Jabber Navigating Online Events and Conferences - JSJ 541
JavaScript Jabber 127 JSJ Changes in npm-Land with Forrest Norvell, Rebecca Turner, Ben Coe, and Isaac Z. Schlueter
JavaScript Jabber 126 JSJ The Ionic Framework with Max Lynch and Tyler Renelle
JavaScript Jabber 124 JSJ The Origin of Javascript with Brendan Eich
JavaScript Jabber 133 JSJ Remote Work with Mike Hostetler
JavaScript Jabber Supply Chain Security - Part 2 - JSJ 525
JavaScript Jabber 123 JSJ Traceur with Erik Arvidsson
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 380: Expo for Web with Charlie Cheever
JavaScript Jabber Personal Branding for Developers with Morad Stern - JSJ 642
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 253 Gomix with Daniel X Moore
JavaScript Jabber 120 JSJ Google Polymer with Rob Dodson and Eric Bidelman
JavaScript Jabber Unveiling Qwik and JavaScript Streamlining Web Development with Shai Reznik - JSJ 628
JavaScript Jabber 069 JSJ The Application Cache with Jake Archibald
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 276: Vue.js with Maximilian Schwarzmüller
JavaScript Jabber 115 JSJ The ES6 Module Loader Polyfill, SystemJS, and jspm with Guy Bedford
JavaScript Jabber Supply Chain Security - Part 1 - JSJ 524
JavaScript Jabber 110 JSJ Zones with Brian Ford
JavaScript Jabber 103 JSJ Robots with Raquel Vélez
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 376: Trix: A Rich Text Editor for Everyday Writing with Javan Makhmali
JavaScript Jabber 136 JSJ TrackingJS with Eduardo Lundgren
JavaScript Jabber 116 JSJ jQuery UI vs KendoUI with Burke Holland and TJ VanToll
JavaScript Jabber 052 JSJ Node & NPM with Isaac Schlueter
JavaScript Jabber 099 JSJ npm, Inc. with Isaac Schlueter, Laurie Voss, and Rod Boothby
JavaScript Jabber 098 JSJ Assemble.io with Brian Woodward and Jon Schlinkert
JavaScript Jabber 097 JSJ Gulp.js with Eric Schoffstall
JavaScript Jabber 095 JSJ AngularUI with Dean Sofer
JavaScript Jabber 118 JSJ Web Developer Skills
JavaScript Jabber 093 JSJ The New York Times and JavaScript with Eitan Konigsburg, Alastair Coote and Reed Emmons
JavaScript Jabber Builder.io and Qwik - JSJ 540
JavaScript Jabber 091 JSJ JSON APIs
JavaScript Jabber 090 JSJ Users Groups
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 382: Mental Health with Anatoliy Zaslavskiy
JavaScript Jabber 220 JSJ Teaching JavaScript with Kyle Simpson
JavaScript Jabber Changes in the JAMstack Landscape with Sean C Davis - JSJ 482
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 278 Machine Learning with Tyler Renelle
JavaScript Jabber 088 JSJ Lazy.js with Daniel Tao
JavaScript Jabber 087 JSJ TC39 with Alex Russell
JavaScript Jabber 030 JSJ Learning & Teaching JavaScript with Noel Rappin
JavaScript Jabber Structuring Node.js Applications: Event Loop, Metrics, and Efficient Processing Techniques - JSJ 657
JavaScript Jabber The Story of Mel with Tomer Lichtash and David Frankiel - JSJ 544
JavaScript Jabber 184 JSJ Web Performance with Nik Molnar
JavaScript Jabber Upcoming Performance Metrics for the Web - JSJ 542
JavaScript Jabber 219 JSJ Learning JavaScript in 2016
JavaScript Jabber 083 JSJ FRP and RxJS with Matthew Podwysocki
JavaScript Jabber 081 JSJ Promises for Testing Async JavaScript with Pete Hodgson
JavaScript Jabber SolidJS with Ryan Carniato - JSJ 528
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 354: Elm with Richard Feldman
JavaScript Jabber 077 JSJ Monocle with Alex MacCaw
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 447: Using Javascript for Data Analysis and Data Science with Daniel Lathrop
JavaScript Jabber New Horizons in Web Development with Danny Moerkerke - JSJ 658
JavaScript Jabber BONUS: Adding a Content Engine to Your App with a Headless CMS with Jake Lumetta
JavaScript Jabber 075 JSJ Maintainable JavaScript with Nicholas Zakas
JavaScript Jabber 016 JSJ SQL and NoSQL
JavaScript Jabber 071 JSJ JavaScript Strategies at Microsoft with Scott Hanselman
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 281: CodeSponsor - Sustaining Open-Source Software through Ethical Advertising with Eric Berry
JavaScript Jabber Interactive Coding Tutorials with Tomek Salkowski: Enhancing Developer Experiences - JSJ 651
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 287: Blockchain and JS with Ari Lerner
JavaScript Jabber Core Web Vitals and Whatnot - JSJ 537
JavaScript Jabber 068 JSJ ES6 with Aaron Frost
JavaScript Jabber 001 JSJ Asynchronous Programming
JavaScript Jabber Slaughtering Sacred Cows: Reconsidering Software Dev Truisms - JSJ 653
JavaScript Jabber 063 JSJ Burnout
JavaScript Jabber 062 JSJ Dojo with Dylan Schiemann
JavaScript Jabber 149 JSJ Passenger Enterprise with Node.js with Hongli Lai and Tinco Andringa
JavaScript Jabber What Is Functional Programming and What It's Not With Lane Wagner- JSJ 557
JavaScript Jabber 060 JSJ Development Environments
JavaScript Jabber 059 JSJ jQuery Mobile with Todd Parker
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 471: Things Every JavaScript Developer Must Know - Part 3
JavaScript Jabber 057 JSJ Functional Programming with Zach Kessin
JavaScript Jabber 056 JSJ Marionette.js with Derick Bailey
JavaScript Jabber 082 JSJ JSHint with Anton Kovalyov
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 458: Codota Tabnine and the Rise of Ai-powered Developer Tooling with Kyle Simpson
JavaScript Jabber 212 JSJ Horizon.js with Horizon.js with Michael Glukhovsky: Live from ng-conf!
JavaScript Jabber How to Get Hired at a FANG Company - BONUS
JavaScript Jabber Opinionated Core Web Vitals - JSJ 647
JavaScript Jabber 055 JSJ Web Developer Skills
JavaScript Jabber Deep Dive into Metrics and Monitoring with Prometheus and Grafana - JSJ 645
JavaScript Jabber Monitoring Performance and Core Web Vitals ft. Bianca Grizhar and Sumitra Manga - JSJ 501
JavaScript Jabber 053 JSJ Software Team Dynamics
JavaScript Jabber Flutter Essentials ft. Allen Wyma - JSJ 494
JavaScript Jabber 145 JSJ Meteor.js with Matt DeBergalis
JavaScript Jabber Adapting to Effect Cluster: JavaScript Developers' Guide to Enhancing Code Maintainability - JSJ 639
JavaScript Jabber 051 JSJ Finding a Job
JavaScript Jabber 049 JSJ MooTools with Valerio Proietti and Arian Stolwijk
JavaScript Jabber 044 JSJ Book Club: Effective JavaScript with David Herman
JavaScript Jabber 104 JSJ Hypermedia APIs with Steve Klabnik
JavaScript Jabber Framework Comparisons, Real User Metrics, and Effective Performance Tools - JSJ 640
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 296: Changes in React and the license with Azat Mardan
JavaScript Jabber State Management ft. Assaf Krintza - JSJ 508
JavaScript Jabber 040 JSJ Conferences
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 282: Trails.js with Scott Wyatt
JavaScript Jabber 039 JSJ Sweet.js with Tim Disney
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 360: Evolutionary Design with James Shore
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 264 Mendel with Irae Carvalho
JavaScript Jabber 037 JSJ Promises with Domenic Denicola and Kris Kowal
JavaScript Jabber 015 JSJ Open Discussion
JavaScript Jabber 013 JSJ Knockout.js with Steven Sanderson
JavaScript Jabber 067 JSJ Testem with Toby Ho
JavaScript Jabber 035 JSJ node-webkit
JavaScript Jabber 033 JSJ enyo.js
JavaScript Jabber 032 JSJ Angular.js
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 309: WebAssembly and JavaScript with Ben Titzer
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 262 Mozilla Firefox Developer Tools with Jason Laster
JavaScript Jabber Crafting Code and Community: AI, LeetCode, and Meetups - JSJ 644
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 365: Do You Need a Front-End Framework?
JavaScript Jabber 029 JSJ Bower.js with Alex MacCaw and Jacob Thornton
JavaScript Jabber 028 JSJ Greenfield vs Brownfield Projects
JavaScript Jabber 027 JSJ The JavaScript Community
JavaScript Jabber How to Become a Senior Developer with Shem Magnezi - JSJ 521
JavaScript Jabber Web3 with Nik Kalyani - JSJ 520
JavaScript Jabber 023 JSJ Phantom.js with Ariya Hidayat
JavaScript Jabber 022 JSJ Node.js on Azure with Glenn Block
JavaScript Jabber 096 JSJ The Challenges of Large Single Page JavaScript Applications with Bart Wood
JavaScript Jabber 017 JSJ CoffeeScript with Jeremy Ashkenas
JavaScript Jabber 011 JSJ Can HTML5 and JavaScript Really Replace Flash?
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 426: Killing the Release Night with Progressive Delivery with Dave Karow
JavaScript Jabber 009 JSJ Testing JavaScript with Joe Eames
JavaScript Jabber HTMX and InterCooler ft. Carson Gross - JSJ 513
JavaScript Jabber Transforming React Development: The Experimental Compiler’s Approach to Memoization and Performance - JSJ 636
JavaScript Jabber 170 JSJ RabbitMQ with Derick Bailey
JavaScript Jabber Software Development as a Craft with Netta Bondy - JSJ 551
JavaScript Jabber Writing Change-Proof Software with Tests - JSJ 555
JavaScript Jabber 008 JSJ V8 and Dart with Lars Bak and Kasper Lund
JavaScript Jabber D3 and Data Visualization ft. Ian Johnson - JSJ 507
JavaScript Jabber Creeds of Craftsmanship - JSJ 505
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 404: Edge on Chromium with Chris Heilmann
JavaScript Jabber Navigating Web Development Challenges - JSJ 624
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 411: Unit Testing Jest with Daniel Caldas
JavaScript Jabber 3 Fundamental Pillars You Need to Succeed as an Entrepreneur - BONUS
JavaScript Jabber Javascript and the Blockchain with Max Kordek - JSJ 503
JavaScript Jabber Alpinejs, Microservices, Code Completion, and Getting Paid for Open Source with Caleb Porzio - JSJ 497
JavaScript Jabber Opinionated Core Web Vitals - JSJ 495
JavaScript Jabber Virtual DOM and the React Way, Part 1 - JSJ 512
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 337: Microstates.js – Composable State Primitives for JavaScript with Charles Lowell & Taras Mankovski
JavaScript Jabber The New JAMstack with Brian Rinaldi - JSJ 491
JavaScript Jabber Web Performance and the Google WordPress Team with Felix Arntz - JSJ 548
JavaScript Jabber The React Way & Opinionated Practices with Ian Schwartz - JSJ 488
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 440: Why Serverless with Gareth McCumskey
JavaScript Jabber 054 JSJ JavaScript Parsing, ASTs, and Language Grammar w/ David Herman and Ariya Hidayat
JavaScript Jabber Gal Schlezinger and Edge Functions - JSJ 536
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 408: Reading Source Code with Carl Mungazi
JavaScript Jabber 162 JSJ ESLint with Jamund Ferguson
JavaScript Jabber 187 JSJ Vue.js with Evan You
JavaScript Jabber 156 JSJ Soft Skills and Marketing Yourself as a Software Developer with John Sonmez
JavaScript Jabber SEO for Developers ft. Mordy Oberstein - JSJ 509
JavaScript Jabber 058 JSJ Building Accessible Websites with Brian Hogan
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 294: Node Security with Adam Baldwin
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 247 Building a Development Environment with Cory House
JavaScript Jabber 085 JSJ Huxley with Pete Hunt
JavaScript Jabber 078 Working From Home
JavaScript Jabber 050 JSJ QUnit with Jörn Zaefferer
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 423: State of JS
JavaScript Jabber 130 JSJ Browser Tools and Extensions
JavaScript Jabber Find Out More About Elliot Johnson - BONUS
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 418: Security Scary Stories and How to Avoid Them with Kevin A McGrail
JavaScript Jabber Getting to Know Bruce A. Tate - BONUS
JavaScript Jabber Everything Remult with Noam Honig and Yoni Rapoport - JSJ 579
JavaScript Jabber Jason Weimann - Learn Video Game Development with Chuck - BONUS
JavaScript Jabber TanStack Router with Tanner Linsley - JSJ 578
JavaScript Jabber How Do You Stop Hating Your Job? - BONUS
JavaScript Jabber 234 JSJ JAMStack with Brian Douglas and Matt Christensen
JavaScript Jabber Reverse Engineering with Joyce Lin - JSJ 577
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 480: Are Micro Frontends worth the effort? (And if so when?)
JavaScript Jabber BONUS: How Opportunities Come Your Way When You're an Influencer
JavaScript Jabber Signals: What You Should Know with Tejas Kumar - JSJ 576
JavaScript Jabber The Best of JavaScript and Ruby in 2023 - JSJ 575
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 479: Practical Microservices with Ethan Garofolo
JavaScript Jabber BONUS: What is Charles Max Wood's Biggest Payoff for Being a Dev Influencer?
JavaScript Jabber Functional Programming with Ian Schwartz - JSJ 574
JavaScript Jabber What To Expect For JSNation - BONUS
JavaScript Jabber Introducing Codux With Nadav Abrahami & Tom Raviv - JSJ 573
JavaScript Jabber Build Your Game Using JavaScript with Andrzej Mazur- JSJ 572
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 392: The Murky Past and Misty Future of JavaScript with Douglas Crockford
JavaScript Jabber The State of JS Frameworks with Ryan Carniato: Part 2 - JSJ 571
JavaScript Jabber 114 JSJ Asynchronous UI and Non-Blocking Interactions with Elliott Kember
JavaScript Jabber 117 JSJ The Koa Framework with Gerred Dillon and Will Conant
JavaScript Jabber The State of JS Frameworks with Ryan Carniato: Part 1 - JSJ 570
JavaScript Jabber Web Performance With Alex Russell - JSJ 569
JavaScript Jabber 113 JSJ Community Dynamics with Reginald Braithwaite
JavaScript Jabber React Native & Every-Platform Embeddable UI With Taz Singh - JSJ 568
JavaScript Jabber BONUS: How Jason Weimann Became a Game Developer
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 452: Caddy 2 Web Server with Matthew Holt
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 475: DevOps for the JavaScript Developer
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 473: The Elements framework with Chris Mather
JavaScript Jabber Providing The Best User Experiences on the Web With Vercel- BONUS
JavaScript Jabber 228 JSJ React Native with Nader Dabit and Mike Grabowski
JavaScript Jabber Front-End Hydration - JSJ 567
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 472: RedwoodJS Brings Full-Stack to the JAMstack with Anthony Campolo
JavaScript Jabber 002 JSJ The Right Way to Build Web Applications
JavaScript Jabber Marvels Of Using Svelte and SvelteKit - JSJ 566
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 470: Fine Tuning Your Psychological Stack, or DevOps For Your Brain
JavaScript Jabber Runtime Security With Gal Weizman - JSJ 565
JavaScript Jabber 188 JSJ JavaScript Code Smells with Elijah Manor
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 468: The case for JavaScript iterators, part 1
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 460: The Things Every JavaScript Developer Must Know, Part 2
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 454: Mongoose, Mongo and Object Document Mapping (ODM) with Valeri Karpov
JavaScript Jabber 180 JSJ Finding a Job
JavaScript Jabber How To Plan For Success In 2023 - JSJ 564
JavaScript Jabber Qwik Part II With Misko Hevery - JSJ 563
JavaScript Jabber 213 JSJ Developer Evangelism with Greg Baugues
JavaScript Jabber Blockchain with Max Kordek - JSJ 529
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 399: Debugging with Async/Await with Valeri Karpov
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 457: Career Transitioning with Laura Harvey
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 456: Developer-First Security and Security Tooling For Developers with Liran Tal & Brian Vermeer
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 455: Introducing and Understanding Svelte and Sapper with Mark Volkmann
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 453: Debugging Third Party JavaScript with Ben Vinegar
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 335: “CanJS 4.0” with Justin Meyer
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 446: Achieving Work-Life Balance, Especially When WFH
JavaScript Jabber Exploring Local-First Applications and Data Synchronization Challenges - JSJ 654
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 445: Augmented Reality for Mobile Browsers with Connell Gauld
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 441: The Present and Future of JavaScript Bundling and Delivery with Yoav Weiss
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 439: More Jabber About Less JavaScript with Alex Russell
JavaScript Jabber Remix and EpicWeb.dev with Kent C. Dodds - JSJ 554
JavaScript Jabber Unpacking Deno 2: Code Stability, Free Speech, and more - JSJ 648
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 419: Google App Script with Ben Collins
JavaScript Jabber 019 JSJ Browserify with James Halliday
JavaScript Jabber 034 JSJ Ember.js
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 302: Evaluating Web Frameworks with Kitson Kelly
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 465:The Power of Micro Front-Ends with Michael Geers
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 395: The New Ember with Mike North
JavaScript Jabber The Alphabet Soup of Performance Measurements - JSJ 622
JavaScript Jabber 031 JSJ history.js
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 436: MongoDB Basics with Joe Karlsson
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 379: FindCollabs and Podcasting with Jeff Meyerson
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 433: Understanding the Browser Layer with Noam Rosenthal
JavaScript Jabber 237 JSJ CLls - Ember Angular and React with Tracy Lee
JavaScript Jabber New Frontiers in Web Platform Development with Bruce Lawson - JSJ 634
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 310: Thwarting Insider Threats with Greg Kushto
JavaScript Jabber 125 JSJ WebGL with Sean Griffin
JavaScript Jabber Pain-Free Automated Deployments with DigitalOcean's App Platform - BONUS
JavaScript Jabber 061 JSJ Functional Reactive Programming with Juha Paananen and Joe Fiorini
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 424: UI5 and web components with Peter Muessig
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 250 Celebration
JavaScript Jabber 010 JSJ Node.js
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 422: CSS and Houdini with Una Kravets
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 421: Semantic HTML with Bruce Lawson
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 299: How To Learn JavaScript When You're Not a Developer with Chris Ferdinandi
JavaScript Jabber BONUS: Continuing Your Learning Journey by Finding Mentors as an Influencer
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 420: OpenAPI, Redoc, and API Documentation with Adam Altman
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 417: Serverless with Microsoft Azure with Burke Holland
JavaScript Jabber TypeScript, ESLint, and TypeScript ESLint with Josh Goldberg - JSJ 605
JavaScript Jabber Harnessing Module Federation and Micro Front-Ends in JavaScript Development - JSJ 603
JavaScript Jabber Unpacking Core Web Vitals - JSJ 620
JavaScript Jabber 072 JSJ Screencasts
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 416: GraphQL Developer Tools with Sean Grove
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 414: JavaScript Jabber Still at RxJs Live
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 409: Swagger and Open API with Josh Ponelat
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 405: Machine Learning with Gant Laborde
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 407: Reactive JavaScript and Storybook with Dean Radcliffe
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 450: Native Features Inside The Browser - Introducing Google's Project Fugu with Thomas Steiner
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 464: Web Components FTW with Ben Farrell
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 400: The Influence of JavaScript Jabber
JavaScript Jabber 185 JSJ PouchDB with Nolan Lawson
JavaScript Jabber DevOps for JavaScript ft. Will Button - JSJ 502
JavaScript Jabber 020 JSJ Cloud9
JavaScript Jabber 076 JSJ Meteor.js with Marcus Phillips and Fred Zirdung
JavaScript Jabber Astro with Fred K. Schott - JSJ 561
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 398: Node 12 with Paige Niedringhaus
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 396: Publishing Your Book with Jonathan Lee Martin
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 342: Aurelia in Action with Sean Hunter
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 394: SMS Integration with Dominik Kundel
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 393: Why You Should Be Using Web Workers with Surma
JavaScript Jabber Using Storybook and Nuxt To Quickly Build Websites - JSJ 531
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 336: “The Origin of ESLint” with Nicholas Zakas
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 332: “You Learned JavaScript, Now What?” with Chris Heilmann
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 391: Debugging with Todd Gardner
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 330: “AWS: Amplify” with Nader Dabit
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 448: MongoDB Schema Fundamentals with Joe Karlsson
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 323: "Building a JavaScript platform that gives you the power to build your own CDN" with Kurt Mackey
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 383: What is JavaScript?
JavaScript Jabber Transitioning a Large Front-End Codebase to TypeScript ft. Priscila Oliveira and Mark Story – JSJ 498
JavaScript Jabber The 3 Essentials for Successful Job Outcomes - BONUS
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 378: Stencil and Design Systems with Josh Thomas and Mike Hartington
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 372: Kubernetes Docker and Devops with Jessica Deen LIVE from Microsoft BUILD
JavaScript Jabber React Component and State Management - JSJ 526
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 474: Things JavaScript Developers Should Know, Part 1
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 371: The Benefits and Challenges of Server-Side Rendering (SSR) with Dan Shappir
JavaScript Jabber BONUS: How to Speed Up Your Website For Fun and Profit with Inian Parameshwaran
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 368: TypeScript - Good or Bad
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 370: Azure Functions Part II with Jeff Hollan LIVE at Microsoft BUILD
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 390: Transposit with Adam Leventhal
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 369: Azure Functions with Colby Tresness LIVE at MIcrosoft BUILD
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 367: Pair Programming
JavaScript Jabber AgGrid: From Open Source to Successful Business ft. Niall Crosby - JSJ 504
JavaScript Jabber Node in the Browser and Much more: Web Containers with Eric Simons - JSJ 487
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 463: Building Web Applications with Firebase
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 366: npm with Mikeal Rogers
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 364: Ember Octane with Sam Selikoff
JavaScript Jabber 238 JSJ Intellectual Property and Software Forensics with Bob Zeidman
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JavaScript Jabber Virtual DOM and the React Way, Part Deux - JSJ 518
JavaScript Jabber How to Stay Current with JavaScript - JSJ 499
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JavaScript Jabber 231 JSJ Codewars with Nathan Doctor, Jake Hoffner, and Dan Nolan
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 415: Progressive Web Apps with Maximiliano Firtman
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JavaScript Jabber JSJ 375: Are You Hurting the Web?
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JavaScript Jabber JSJ 355: Progressive Web Apps with Aaron Gustafson LIVE at Microsoft Ignite
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JavaScript Jabber JSJ 313: Light Functional JavaScript with Kyle Simpson
JavaScript Jabber JSJ 300: Celebration
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JavaScript Jabber JSJ 309: WebAssembly and JavaScript with Ben Titzer
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JSJ 397: Design Systems with Kaelig Deloumeau-Prigent

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