01:44 - Dave Verwer Introduction

02:30 - iOS Dev Weekly  

05:29 - Curating Process

07:17 - Editing 

08:39 - Feedback

09:51 - Curation (Cont’d)

10:52 - Sponsorship

15:24 - Curated and Email Marketing

21:21 - Avoiding Spam Filters

24:54 - A/B Testing

26:07 - Dave and iOS Development

Picks

Russ Bishop: More Swift Attributes (Andrew)
Silicon Labs Microcontrollers (Andrew)
DigiKey (Andrew)
ASCIIwwdc (Mike)
Lifeline... (Dave)
Pink Floyd on Vinyl on YouTube (Jaim)

 

 

Hey everybody and welcome to episode 109 of the iPhreaks show. Today in our panel we have Andrew Madsen.

Hello from Salt Lake City.

Michael Ash.

Hello from Fairfax, Virginia.

I'm Jaim Zuber and today in our show we have the illustrious Dave Verwer.

Hi.

Dave, a lot of us are familiar with you as in your email list but can you tell us a little bit more about yourself?

Sure thing. I've been in the Mac and iOS development world for not an enormous amount of time but since about 2006, something like that. I started off writing some Mac software. Then, of course, the iPhone happened and never really looked back from there. I was very interested, of course, in [inaudible 02:10] the iPhone and started up writing some apps and eventually got into doing some training on Objective-C. We run training courses and that kind of thing as well as doing apps. Then, I had the idea for iOS Dev Weekly and started that. Then, it went from there, really.

Very cool. Can you tell those of us who aren't familiar with iOS Dev Weekly a little bit about what it is?

Of course. It's a weekly email and website that goes out on a Friday afternoon – or I guess it's a Friday afternoon here in the UK but it’s Friday or Saturday morning depending on where you are in the world – which contains a list of around about 10 or 12 links from the week in iOS development and the world of Objective-C and Swift. It's a kind of digest of the week, really.

When did the email lists start?

It started in mid-2011. Actually, just coming up on the 4th anniversary of it –the 4th anniversary will be in a few weeks. It started up around about then. I didn't really know whether it's going to work or not. I was a big fan of that style of email. I was subscribed to a few myself; notably, Ruby Weekly which is actually still going. It's still rolling on every week. I liked the format and I had to look around to see if there was anything like that in the Cocoa and iOS space. There wasn't and so I thought, “Well, maybe I can do that.”

The way it started was I put a little bit of pressure on because I knocked up a quick website in a few hours and tweet it out – a single tweet that say what I was doing. The website didn't, of course, have any concept on it – just have an email signup box. From that initial tweet, over 600 people signed up. It was a bit of a case of “Oh okay, well, I thought I'll actually do this then.” [Chuckles]

And I think you just published issue 200 last week.

It is. It was last week. Yeah. That was a milestone. I never expected it to go anywhere, really.  The success of it has been beyond what I expected, of course. Yet, I haven't missed a single week – every single week for almost four years.

Oh, I know. We do picks at the end of every episode and I know that I whole lot of my picks have been ripped [chuckles] – I shouldn't say ripped off –but things that I found via the newsletter.

That's great.

So it's been very valuable to me for that but also, professionally, I've enjoyed reading it every week.

It's easy to do as well because the community we have here is so fantastic in publishing so much content every week. When I first started, I was always worried that – after I published that first issue, I thought “By next Friday, I've got to have a whole other 10 links.” and it's never once then a problem. [Chuckles]

In fact, the problem is the opposite. I end up with way too many links every single week. But I really

try not to make the email any bigger because I think that's one of the things about it that people like is that it's not an overwhelming amount of stuff to read. At a basic level, it's what I find interesting and that's always the way I've done it. But yeah, there's so much fantastic contents produced every single week by the community. It's easy.

Where are you getting all these stuff? You just ran across it during the week? People send it to you? What's your process for digging this stuff up?

Yeah, a mix of all those things, really. Twitter would be my primary source. I got a set of people, of course, that I follow on Twitter. If they're not posting it directly, they're retweeting and articles tend to come past my Twitter feed. The only downside to it is it has made Twitter into a job rather than [inaudible 06:00] ever just skip to the top of the timeline because I do need to keep an eye on what's being published and what's being talked about. People do also send me things they've written or things that they've read that I might not have seen.

Then, of course, I have a set of RSS feeds. I tend to use the RSS feeds as a map up in case I missed anything. So, on a Thursday evening, I’ll usually go through my RSS and a lot of the stuff in there are I love already got saved but I always come across some articles that either I haven't missed or they haven't been talked about or whatever.

I wonder if, at this point, you get people that are trying to promote something that they're doing. I

don't mean as a sponsorship – just trying to get into the newsletter.

It definitely happens and it's fine. It's absolutely fine to put something in front of me; but putting something in front of me is not a guarantee that it's going to go in. If it doesn't go in, it doesn't mean it's bad. It doesn't mean I didn't like it. It doesn't mean any of those things. It's just there is a finite number of things that go in every week. Some get picked and some don't. It's as simple as that, really.

People definitely try and put their articles in front of me either via Twitter or replying to me or whatever or by email as well.

Yeah. I imagine that careful editing of the things that you include is pretty important for keeping up the quality of the newsletter because I know when I read, I appreciate the fact that it's not just some junk thing that somebody wrote and doesn't know what they're talking about or whatever. You tend to have high-quality articles and then you have a good mix of different subjects. I wonder how you came up with or how do you come up with that mix?

I think that comes really from my interests. I have very broad interest in iOS development. I'm not purely interested in the code; I'm not purely interested in the design side or the business side. I enjoy reading articles around the entire spectrum of – from everything – from, for example, Mike's low-level Friday Q&A posts – link to many of those in the newsletter right through to – there was an article I published in or linked in last week's issue that was really nothing about iOS development. It's all about thinking about privacy and all that – it was nothing to do with the platform but it was interesting to developers on this platform. My personal interest is quite broad so I tended to – when I was thinking about the categories that I wanted to put things into, I came up with quite a broad set of those categories. They've changed a little over time but not usually.

I'm curious to know what kind of feedback you get. I imagined over the four years that you've done this, you hear from a lot of people that read the newsletter.

Yeah, it's always nice to get feedback. It's actually interesting that when I started this I didn't really think much about it but I made a decision that I'm really glad that I made now which is to not make it from – like the email address that it comes from – to not make it from iOSDevweekly@somedomain or something like that but to make it from me. I use my real email address and so sending feedback is as simple as hitting reply.

Of course, people talked about that in Twitter and that's fine. That's very nice as well. People giving feedback over Twitter but I got a lot of email back from people. Sometimes just as simple as saying “Thanks for doing it.” or sometimes pointing out something – mistakes that I made or something like that because, of course, that happens on a reasonably regular basis. Sometimes, replying and saying a few words and then suggesting an article or follow-up articles or something like that. Again, that gets my job a little easier from getting those suggestions and feedback. It's always nice to hear from people.

How long do you spend on a week curating the list?

Some of the time is definitely spent just doing the reading and saving the articles. It's really hard to keep track of that time because that's something I'm doing constantly throughout the week. But I always also think that time doesn't really count because I would already be reading these articles. One of the reasons I started with this was I was already reading a lot of stuff that was being published. So, I always discount that time a little bit because I did it anyway. Maybe I didn't quite – do it quite as deliberately as I do it now but it definitely happened.

Then, when it comes to a Thursday evening or Friday morning, I spend 2-3 hours probably putting the thing together; writing the little bits of country; picking the final list of articles. Some of that is spent reading the articles in depth again to make sure I didn’t missed anything but most of that time is spent doing the writing and the final pick.

It’s always good to have a side business. Actually, it's going pretty well for you where you can do things that you are already doing – going to be doing. You can't be too absorbed because now you have to do it as you mentioned before but at least, a lot of us are reading about off Twitter and keeping up to date with things. It's good that you can “Hey, that's part of my job. It's what I do.”

Yeah, definitely. I always try to keep it outside of the time that I would spend working on the business. When I started it, it was all done in evenings and mornings before work. But sponsorship changed the way that I thought about it a little bit. It made it a little more of a serious thing for me. It wasn't sponsored for a good while. I think I had about 10,000 subscribers at the point where I decided to accept some sponsorship.

That gave me a little bit of freedom in terms of I felt less guilty about spending what I consider work time in doing it because, now, it was actually bringing a little bit of income to the company as well. It did just – it made it a bit more of a serious thing for me. I was a little concerned that people wouldn't take well to this sponsorship but actually it's been the opposite. In fact, I had several people email me after it went having sponsors link every week to say, “I'm really glad that you’ve take – decided to take sponsorship because that means you definitely going to do it every week.” Because it's definitely a commitment so having that money coming in from it is a good motivation to keep doing it.

Some people think there's a purity in doing for free but the reality is that you're doing it on your free time, your nights and your weekends, and most people who are doing that burn out. They do it for six months; they do a great job like, “I want to do something else.” and they don't do it.

But I approached that sponsorship quite cautiously myself as well because I’ve had several people getting such – before I started taking sponsorships saying, “We can help you get sponsors for this. We can help you do whatever – or take some money for it.” I didn't want to do that because I do really care about the quality of what goes out in it and that includes the sponsored link.

So instead of taking some service that provides sponsored links every week, the sponsorship is completely between me or I have someone in the company who helps with the organization of the sponsors but it is direct to the person sitting right next to me, “I'm the company here who wants to sponsor.” There's no middleman putting random advertisements in. Every sponsor I check out and just make sure they’re relevant and they look that it’s a decent – I don't test every single product but I give it a once-over to make sure that it seems relevant to my audience.

Right. That totally makes sense. You're not going to want to sponsor some mortgage company or insurance sales. It wouldn't make sense.

And also keeping it to the just one-sponsored link is also something I was very keen to do. I mean that we include some jobs as well now but it's still just one-sponsored link for the main link.

Okay. As a reader, I appreciate it when, “Oh, it's something I would do. Join the button WWDC party.” That's something that a lot of your readers would be interested in. So you mentioned a thing [crosstalk].

That sort of thing really makes a difference as far as whether or not readers get annoyed by it or appreciate it. If you put a little bit of attention in it, it seems like a good way to bring in some money and make people happy at once.

Yeah. I think that we've had weeks where the sponsored link has been literally the talked click link in the issue. Keeping the sponsors relevant is definitely a good thing.

And you do it without any questionable tactics like making the link massive. [Chuckles]

Sure. Again, that was a very deliberate thing. It just needs to be part of the newsletter. It's clearly marked as a sponsored link. Nobody could think it was not sponsored. It's very clearly stated that it's sponsored but it is just part of the regular content though.

And the makes it, that's becoming pretty common for companies that provide content will have a sponsored link but though integrate it with whatever else they're doing. It looks similar. You could tell it's an ad, it's sponsored, whatever; but it doesn't really out in an obnoxious way of certain mortgage ads that involve TV.

You mentioned the company, what you're doing before. I'm not really sure what were you doing before. What were you doing when you started doing this?

A lot of our business was training and we wrote maps and that kind of thing. In fact, we still do a lot of that but we've turned iOS Dev Weekly into a little bit of a company as well. Not iOS Dev Weekly itself but the system. I used to put the whole thing together manually. That was a case of writing the content, manually putting it into mail trim. Then, as I started to get a little tired of that – there's a lot of manual work in that process. It would take 2-3 hours to write the content and then it would take a good amount of time to get it published as well.

At that point, it was bringing some sponsorship money in and I decided that we could afford to put a little bit of time to making my life a little easier. So, we developed a sole system that worked, helped automate a lot of those tasks. Now, when I come to write the issues, I log in to a web system and its right there. I type my commentary and I hit send and the whole thing is just done. That little system was live at the beginning of last year – January 2014. It did. It saved me a lot of time.

Actually, the rise of this style of team email and website was happening at the same time. We decided to turn that system that was originally written for me into a product. That launched initially in a limited launch middle of last year – August last year and then probably at the beginning of this year in January. We have turned what was originally something that might save me a couple hours a week into – it's actually a separate company now. That's another company that's purely responsible for doing that – it's called Curated.

I'm curious now what kind of customers you have for Curated. Where are they? What kinds of things are they using it for?

It's mixed really. There are people who do similar style the same as the style thing that I did when I was dev iOS3 – so just either an individual or a group of individuals who have an interest in a topic and wants to start putting something out effectively just for themselves so get an example of that. For example is the news article Remotive which is all about remote workings – articles and links on remote is working. They signed up and they now run – there's a group of them that do it. They now run this weekly thing which is doing really well and all things about remote working. That's one typical customer.

And then, the other one is they use the same style of email to help promote a company. The traditional marketing email is all about the person sending it. You might get an email from a company and the only links in that email are going to be back to their latest announcement or that product page or something like that. At the core of iOS Dev Weekly – the core of all of these – personally run once is the content that you're sending out is genuinely interesting. And that's what a lot of marketing email goes slightly less effective than people might want it to be.

So companies can use this style of email to mix in some links to interesting articles that would be interesting to their companies – I’m so sorry – to their customers as well as maybe a couple links to something they wrote at blog post. Not every single blog post they write but a couple of there are best blog posts in the last couple of weeks. It was something I asked what kind of mix of half marketing, half genuine interesting content from other people.

I'm thinking as an iOS or Mac developer, if you're trying to build or run an independent business, I've heard that email marketing or an email newsletter is really good. But I've always thought that nobody just wants email clogging up their inbox that's purely a market. This app that they already know about. [Chuckles]

That kind of email is effective. Email's amazing, right? I love email. Of all the social media, I see emails that you're never going to see in the original one. It is a very personal connection even though you're sending out to a lot of people or can be. You come in to the person's inbox; you come onto their phone; and it's a relationship you have to take very seriously. It's not something one of the subscribers not posting is never coming back. I really like the idea of sending email that people actually even look forward to rather than drag.

That makes sense. I think it's become very common at least over the past 2 or 3 years to elaborately build up an email list. If you just provide useless information, people are going to unsubscribe or hit spam even though they signed up for it. They'll just do it because they don't want to see it again. That's always the risk. But if you provide something that your readers want to see, they'll “Oh, okay, that's cool”, then –

A lot of people do hit spam on iOS Dev Weekly occasionally as well. [Chuckles] I know why because there’s only one way I was to get in that list and that's to go and deliberately sign up. [Chuckles]

That's just the easiest way to get off the list.

Yeah, and it is that simple. As I say, that relationship is very delicate in some ways. You need to treat the people you're emailing with respect.

Definitely. I ran a band for a music group email list and “Stop sending me those spam.” “You signed up for it. What do you want from me?” [Chuckles] “I'll take you off. No problem.” The definition of spam is fluent for a lot of people.

It is. Yeah.

And what you see as spam, someone else might see as useful; and what you see as useful, someone else might see as spam.

So spam is just whatever I don't want to see at this moment.

Exactly. Yeah.

Do you have trouble evading spam filters at all?

I did for a while. I went through a real [chuckles] rough patch about a year after the thing started up. Now, it's not a problem at all. There are a couple of things you can do to help. To be honest, I already done them when I was hitting these spam problems. It was Gmail because so much of the email on iOS Dev Weekly – the email addresses – are either Gmail directly or Google apps. It's an enormous percentage of the people who subscribe to the list. Their spam filter took a dislike to me for a little while. You'd see just an enormous difference in how effective the email was for a while.

There were some things that I did in terms of writing. Always be very careful with an exclamation mark. It's an important lesson I learned. Don't use the word 'free'; don't use the word 'dollars'; don't use the word – there are definitely some trigger words.

It's crazy.

Yeah. Literally, at one point, a single exclamation mark in the issue would put a serious risk of getting caught in like 50% of the emails not getting delivered.

Must be an English spam filter because you don't want to show to much of excitement.

42] [Chuckles] But actually, what happened is I think Gmail got used to seeing enough from me and Gmail does some crazy stuff with their spam filters. Because it receives so many emails that go to lots of people, they actually sometimes hold back emails. They've delivered it, they've received it and it won't go to either spam box or the inbox until it's received enough copies of that email and knows roughly what's happening with it. It's a big black box inside Gmail. But it got sorted out. A little bit of tweaking of the writing and it was solved.

Yeah. I see weird things with Gmail where if it gets flagged as spam, you'll have your link to your article but they won't go anywhere. They removed the href.

Oh, really?

There's a little thing at the top saying “Oh, is this spam?” Then I just -

Right. Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah.

I was like “Hey, why can't I click on this thing? This is useful to me.”

Yeah.

That's really interesting stuff. I'm really curious how did you figure out, for example, the exclamation part – exclamation mark was a problem? That seems like you would never be able to actually determine that.

There were some tools that you can use and I use them. I use the service called Litmus which does – it does a couple of things. It does email previews so you can send Litmus an email and they will show you what it looks like in old versions of Outlook and Lotus Notes 6.5. You can have [inaudible 24:13] way on all the emails.

They also do a spam filter check and they actually give you feedback from that spam filter check on the kind of things that it's failing on. So you might get a high score in Outlook for a certain email and it will tell you if you use the word 'free' and the word 'dollars' – not necessarily next to each other. But using those two words in an email is going to increase its score. Then, I look at the results from the spam filters, basically. That was really useful feedback in terms of helping to fix those problems. Actually so useful that we now partnered with Litmus to create this Curated product. We actually teamed up with them to like that.

Have you done any A/B testing to see what's get clicked and what doesn't to make changes?

I haven't. It's something that's been suggested lots of times and it's definitely a very effective way to test things out. It's very common in email actually. But there's a couple of reasons I haven't ever done it because a lot of email goes out and it's just about the email. It doesn't – you don't have a web archive. Or if you do, it's not publicly indexed or it's not something that a lot of people look at.

With iOS Dev Weekly, I've always been very keen to have that website that goes along with the email that has all the archives there. Every link I've ever included searchable a whole lot. A/B testing, when you have the archive, becomes a little bit tricky because you don't want your audience – it's comes back to that respecting again. This kind of email, I don't want my audience to feel they're being played with. Having an archive there is a great way to keep that person honest because you do have the canonical version of the email. So it's not something I've ever really done.

Dave, do you still do a fair amount of iOS development yourself? Or has iOS Dev Weekly and Curated taken over?

Curated, definitely, is a large part of my working life at the moment. As you're probably guessing, it's not an iOS project because it is a web app. [Chuckles] As much as I try to get through with our developers to pursuade them to use a service on iOS, they just didn't want any part of it. It's a Ruby app and I've definitely done less iOS development since we started working so much on that.

But I do continue to write apps. In fact, I'm going to start showing an app around at WWDC next week to a few people which is not quite ready for release yet but it's almost there. That would be my first shipping app in Swift which is interesting.

And then we, of course – we still do the trainings. I feel like I still do enough to be able to talk about it but it's certainly less than I used to do.

Right. My thinking with that was that I wondered – you seem, from reading the news letter, it seems like you're always very much up on what's going on. Your commentary on the links is well-informed.

So I wondered how you kept up.

I can fake it really well by now. [Chuckles] I think it's still an interest. I think that's the key thing. I will, I think, be able to do this up until the point that my interest in iOS development fades. That, certainly, isn't happening. I love the iOS platform and the Mac platform but, to be honest, primarily, iOS platform. I absolutely love that. I love developing for it. I've never been happier than when developing on that platform. I think as long as that continues, I can at least still do enough that I

can feel okay about sending out an email every week.

Yeah, definitely. Judging by all the crumbling I see in Twitter though, you may have the Stockholm syndrome on that but we don't know. [Chuckles]

I'm not saying it's perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But overall, if you look better, I'm still optimistic about the platform. I still – and I love developing for it. Yeah, there are problems but there are problems anywhere you go. [Chuckles] Just a different set of problems, right?

This is true. It's a great place to be. I'm happy doing iOS and Mac development. Anything else before we get to the picks? Any other questions or anything you want to say?

I know. It's been great. It's been fun to talk about it.

Yeah, it's been fun to hear a little bit more about what happens behind the scenes because I chose a bit of my inbox every Friday morning central time in the US. But it's a nice chance to take sometime off and read what's happening. And I appreciate someone taking the time to curate the list.

That's the problem this week actually because normally it goes out between 3 and 4 PM in the afternoon for me. Of course, tomorrow, I am flying to San Francisco and in San Francisco it goes out at – is it 7 AM or 8 AM? That's always a bit of a shock when I have to do it that week because it's certainly I don't have all day to writing. [Chuckles] It's got to go before it's time.

That's sounds like a feature for your app.

Yeah, to time travel.

Time travel.

That's a good idea.

That might be past the MVP but –

[Chuckles] Yes.

You just need a feature where you can write at Saturday and send at the previous Friday and you'll be all set.

That's exactly what I need.

Okay. Let's get to the picks. Andrew, what do you have for us?

I've got three picks today. The first one is shamelessly taken from the last issue of iOS Dev Weekly but I thought this was –

By shamelessly, you mean properly attributed.

Yes. Properly attributed. This is courtesy of Dave and a guy named Russ Bishop. It's a short little article about Swift attributes that are – some are documented, some aren't documented. I didn't really know about any of them I think. Some of them are – because they are undocumented, we're not exactly sure what they do. It might not be a good idea to use them in a shipping app. But there are things to investigate. Things like an in-line attribute so you can in-line functions and availability attributes so you can mark functions as available on iOS versus OSX when deprecated versions. That's something – there are those availability adaptations in Objective-C but here's how to do it in Swift. And stuff along those lines. This is some pretty interesting stuff to play around with.

My next pick is perhaps not so directly related to iOS but I think listeners know I've been on a hardware kick lately. I'm actually working on the final hardware design for Wired In – the project that I have on Kickstarter. I'm using Silicon Labs 8051 series microcontrollers. I like them because they're really cheap and they're really small and are easy to program for. I was pleasantly surprised that Silicon Labs now has a Mac version of their 8051 IDE. Well, it also works for their 32-bit processors but I've just been impressed that they're supporting OSX. The tools are pretty good. They're not perfect by any means. The whole things is based on Eclipse and has some quirks. But just the fact that I don't have to boot up a Windows machine to program this microcontroller is nice for me; and I like it.

And then, my last pick is another hardware thing. That is DigiKey. If you're doing hardware, DigiKey is place to go for parts. They have pretty much everything under the sun. You can just buy just one of something or you can buy 10,000 of them, whatever you want.

Those are my picks.

Great. Mike.

Well, given the time and year it is, I'm going to pick ASCIIwwdc. It's basically all of the archived WWDC talks in text form. It's fully searchable. If you are interested in what Apple people had to say during WWDC about any given topic, you can go there, search for it, it'll pull up all the transcripts. If you prefer video form, you can get to the videos once you know the session ID but it's great to have this stuff in searchable and readable format.

Definitely. I ran across that this week while messing with some dynamic type and it pointed me be back to the clutch-and-view talk that they did last year. It's very useful to go back to like, “Oh, this is what they say we should do.” I've been enjoying it.

Anything you can Command F in gets a plus for me.

Yup.

Yeah.

And then Google will find it.

Right.

Yeah, it's great. I was so pleased to see that Apple let it be because the first year it ran, they were still the NDA. I think it was originally brought off the subtitle track, wasn't it? But actually it's now – they've got several years in there and it's a fantastic resource because those videos are incredible and they are useful throughout the entire year but finding stuff in them is a real problem. It's a great sign, however.

Alright. Dave, do you have picks?

I do have a pick. I've actually not want to go with development related pick because I feel like I do that every week, anyway [chuckles]. I have got something which I really enjoyed recently. It was actually a game for iOS called the Lifeline. It was a really interesting concept to have again. There's been a few apps that have done this before but the first time you launch the app, it sets in process a timeline in real-time of a story that happened.

The first time we launched the game – it's a kind of text-based game so it's effectively a text conversation between you and somebody who has crash landed on a moon, somewhere. You have a conversation, you make some choices a little bit like the old adventure games. Then, the guy that you are talking with – who isn't, of course, a real guy. It's just on your phone – but the guy your talking would say, “Alright, what about do this now?” and five hours will pass in real-time and then you get a notification to say, “There's a new message from Taylor.” I really like the style of the game. I like the story and this real-time aspect is cute as well.

Very cool. I've got one pick. I know some people on the show are fans of Vinyl. Andrew, you're a Vinyl fan but I'm not sure who else is. You know what the big problem with Vinyl; listening to music in Vinyl is you can't take it with you. If you can, it can't fit in a backpack; you can't put in your laptop.

59] really resonates over Youtube, you can do that. I just find it soothing. If wanted to listen to the Dark Side of the Moon, just go to this Vinyl's time on Youtube and you can sit and watch Clare Torry play Dark Side of the Moon Side 1.

That's the key. They've got a turn table playing the record on the video.

Yup. It's actually shows the thing spinning around and there it is. If you can see it and it sounds better, I think it's a lot worse.

I think you're right, Jaim.

It's how it goes. I have a degree in audio engineering so you have to listen to what I say. Anyway, that's it for me. Dave, it's great having you on the show. I think we're all fans. Probably most of our podcast listeners are fans of the list but it's great to hear more about it and how it all comes together.

Yeah. Thanks very much for having me on and it's been fun.