Do you want to level up in your career?  Do you want to become a top 1% developer?  Today on the show, Charles provides three simple steps you can implement today to help get you there.

Charles Max_Wood:

Hey everybody and welcome back to another episode of Adventures in Angular. This week I'm your host Charles Max Wood. The guest scheduling just missed a week. I'm finding that a lot of people are on vacation. I just got back from vacation. I wasn't around last week. So anyway, I'm going to jump in and I'm going to talk a little bit about some of the things that I'm working on at Top End Devs. And specifically I wanted to talk about just practice, right? This is one area where I think a lot of people just skip, right? They think, okay, well, I, you know, I spent time writing code at work. Um, you know, maybe you do a little bit of recreational coding in your spare time. But, um, one thing that I find is that a lot of people don't really do like guided practice or specifically, um, spend time, you know, doing a whole lot of code stuff outside of what they absolutely have to do. And I wanted to talk through that a little bit. Now, I'm going to go back and do a little bit of kind of a retrospective on some of the things that I've done just in life. So when I was in high school, I was a swimmer. So I'd get up at 5.30, no 4.30 every morning. I'd make it to the pool like five I think that's what swim practice was it was either five or five thirty But anyway, and we'd swim for an hour hour and a half, right and our coach would have us doing drills He would have us just swim laps and you know There were kind of two purposes to that and later, you know now I'm getting into triathlon and things like that I ran a marathon in 2019 and again You know just get out and practice and run and run and practice and they're kind of two focuses to this. I also want to just put out there that when I was a kid my dad coached soccer teams and baseball teams and basketball teams and you know pretty much all of it because he was a huge sports nut and just really really loved sports and I picked up some of that but not not in the way that some of the other members of my family have you know I have a couple of brothers that played football three of my brothers played football. Yeah, anyway. When we get into this and we're talking about, okay, how do we build excellence, right? How do we become top in-devs, right? How do we become that top 1%? How do we gain the skills that are going to take us through to the next part of our career? How do we build up the capabilities that we need in order to get a raise or get a better job or... to be recognized as an expert out there or become a developer evangelist or you know, whatever it is that you want, right? There are all kinds of opportunities out there and it really just depends, you know, what do I have to learn, what do I have to do, what do I have to demonstrate in order to do that job. And when we're talking about sports, we're typically talking about practicing for two things. We're either honing our technique, right, or we are building fitness. And then kind of a third one, I guess, is just figuring out what works for you, right? So, you know, when I go run the long distances, I figured that I needed to take so much water. or the other thing I could do is I could you know put some water on the bumper of my truck, right? And then I would just make sure that halfway through my run that I'd run by my house so that I could, you know, snag the other water and drop off my empty so that I could, you know, get through the rest of the thing, right? Because I figured out that I needed water and so I built some routines and some habits in order to get the things done that I need to in order to, you know, finish a marathon. There's a swimming group here too, Master Swimming, which is for adults, and we have a coach, right? And so when I swim, I would frequently, I'm not doing Masters right now, but I'm planning on signing up again, I would ask the coach, hey, is there anything in my technique? Is there anything? And she'd give us drills to do, right, in order to make our technique so we could move through the water more quickly. you know. stroke technique in order to get more distance out of each stroke or things like that, right? And finally, a lot of it's just spending the time, right? I mean, when you're getting ready to run a marathon, a lot of it's just building up your fitness so that you can run 26 miles, right? And so you kind of get the idea. Those are kind of the things. And in a lot of cases, then we're looking at programming and we're looking at kind of the long haul that we're going to have to do during our career, right? Because most of us, we get into this as a career, retire if we retire. And so I say if we retire because I plan on just loving life for the rest of my life. I really love what I do. So anyway, the point is though is that we We just kind of neglect all of the things that we could be doing in order to level up, to build the skill, to build the capability, to be able to work longer hours and we have to be able to do whatever it is that we need to do in order to move the needle on a lot of these things and with a lot of these people. with a lot of these jobs. And so I want to talk through some of the ways that we can practice, right? Some of the drills we can do, some of the techniques that we can learn, some of the ways that we can level up. I'm going to go kind of high level. I'm starting a new show called Top End Devs that is specifically focused on like the different things that I'm going to talk about here. And we'll probably get into more detail there. I'm hoping to keep those rather short 10, And this is really germane to the conversation that I have with a whole bunch of people at different times during different things where they're essentially asking me, hey Chuck, how do I become a senior developer? Or hey Chuck, how do I get a better job? Or how do I become better in some way or another? And so this is what is focused there, is effectively, all right, how do I become that top 1% developer? What kinds of things should I be practicing? What kinds of drills can I be doing? What kinds of endurance or fitness challenges can I do in order to up my fitness? And so I'm gonna start with kind of the most basic one, and this is one that I tell everybody to go out and do. And the reason is is because this is a great place to get your reps in. This is a great place to kind of get that endurance challenge, you know, in it's a great way for you to experiment with stuff and that's just to have a side project. Now a lot of people they kind of get into, you know, you're probably thinking, okay well what kind of side project should I pick? Right? What should I work on as a side project in order to move the needle for my career? Or what kind of side project should I pick that's gonna matter? And I want to just point out first that the side project is a place for you to learn, right? So it doesn't have to be a product you're going to sell. It doesn't have to be something you're going to release open source that everybody in the world should be using to do their taxes, right? It doesn't have to be anything fancy. It doesn't have to be anything that anybody's going to go, wow, where was this my whole life? You don't have to go build Facebook or Twitter. like to-do list or Twitter clone or things like that that people tend to pick up just because it's not really who they are, it's not what they're about. You know pick something that's interesting to you. I was coaching one guy and he was trying to level up on Node.js and Express. And so we were talking about stuff and he was like, well, I'm gonna build a budgeting app. And I can't tell you how many people I've coached or worked with on the podcast or whatever that were like, I'm gonna build a budgeting app because budgeting apps are the thing that people build when they have a site project. And I'm just like, well, are you into accounting? Well, no. Is this something that you're gonna use on your own in order to whatever? Well, no. Okay, well let's talk through this then. What are you interested in? What do you spend time on? And this particular guy that I was coaching, he said, I'm really into Diablo 2, which is a video game, for those of you who aren't aware. And he said, I... I'm really into Diablo 2. I like keeping track of the different setups that I have on my characters, like all the equipment and stats and things like that. I like tracking all that stuff. And so he basically started building a social network where people can put in their character stats, right? And then folks can come in and critique other people's character stats. And he doesn't know if he's ever going to release it and it doesn't really matter. I'm gonna give him that playground to go and say, okay, well I'm gonna put React on the front end of this so I can level up React. I'm gonna put Express on the back end of this so I can level up in Node and Express. And you know, just do all kinds of interesting stuff, right? Now is that a thing that's gonna make him a ton of money? Nope. Could it make him any money? Maybe. But it's interesting to him and it's something he'll enjoy working on and so he'll keep coming back to it. And then the other thing is, is that it has enough moving parts that he can go and he can say, all right, well now I want to pick up this chat bot library or whatever, right? So he could stick it in there and build a chat feature in and you get the idea, right? So that's kind of the idea is pick a project that you're interested in that you're gonna spend time on. And Like I said, you know, so this is part of the endurance challenge, because are you going to stick with it long enough to finish it, right? Are you going to find projects or things that you want to learn that are going to work with it? You know, and once again, it's the same kind of deal, you know. You know, maybe, yes, no, maybe. But anyway, again, it gives you a place to go and experiment and learn and grow. And a lot of times what happens is when you have a real world example code project in front of you, what it'll do is it'll actually force you to make some decisions and then pay for those decisions down the line, which is another thing that a lot of people run into that I've been talking to is that as you get going on a project, if you work on the same project for a year and then move jobs, or a year and a half and move jobs, typically don't see the long-term effects of your decisions, but if you're the one that has to fix everything that you break or everything that you build poorly or everything that you don't design properly, then you're gonna start learning those lessons and you're gonna put in enough reps to figure out, hey I need more water when I do the long-haul runs, right? And so you figure out where you need to put the water bottles up on the bumpers in order to make sure that you can make it through your run, or figure out, hey I'm gonna make this decision next time and see if it makes things easier when I'm building a project. You could even write blog posts about it and stuff like that. You know, there are a lot of other places that it can take you, but... Overall, having that project out there really helps. Now, the other thing that I'm gonna put out there is that you should actually open source this project, right? So if it's a side project that you've got, that you're working on, and it's your GWIS project, right? Put it out there and make it a public GitHub repo. And the reason is, is because then when you're out there looking for a job, or you're talking to somebody about what you're learning, or you're trying to get help, they can get to your code. They can go look and see, okay, you know, this is a long-term project that this person's worked on, right? rails or you know angular or whatever like four times right to keep it current. And so they understand some of the challenges that we're gonna run into because they've actually done some of the work that we need them to do, right? And you can actually show them, hey, it's these commits right here, or this branch was when I upgraded, right? And you give them the opportunity then to go and see what you're capable of. And so having it out there as a public project is really a good idea. And then, you know, having it deployed somewhere so people can go and say, oh, I get it, I see what you're doing here is kind of the other piece to that. And so I'm just gonna encourage you this and put it out there and work on it and spend time on it. Now here's the other rub, and this is another thing that I challenge people to do, is just go learn something every day. And the reason is because you see these high end golfers or basketball players or, you know, whatever, right? Whoever it is out there. And what you'll find is they're out there every day working on their craft, right? Now a lot of it is them just being out there and playing the game, right? But in a lot of cases, they're also out there just every day just working on some feature of the way that they operate, right? And if you go and you look at kind of the top end people in our field, right? you'll find that they're consistently learning. I mean, Kent Beck comes to mind, Uncle Bob Martin, a lot of these other guys. If you go and you talk to them, you'll find that they're constantly experimenting with things, they're constantly working to learn something new. And if you're doing that, then you can move up to that level. I don't know anybody that's just kind of gone from zero to... celebrity, right? I've seen a few people that have, you know, they've kind of broken into the public awareness, so to speak, within a programming community, you know, seemingly from zero to that. But typically it's because they were exceptionally skilled, they'd worked on their craft for a long time, and then they finally gave the talk or published the book or did the thing that moved And so I'm going to encourage you to do that too, right? Learn something new every day. And this is really a way for me to basically say, watch a video, read a part of a book, listen to a podcast. There are so many ways right, but but make sure you're learning it right, so maybe you take notes or maybe you say okay, well I need to recite three things that I picked up from this episode or I'm gonna do this course on on how to do angular and So you know at the end of the video I need to be able to do something that I couldn't do before right or know something about angular that I didn't know before And when we're talking about this, I mean, a lot of times it'll take very long, right? It could be a five minute video and it's like, oh, I really understand how eventing works in my framework, right? Or I really understand how the request structure works in Express now. or what have you, right? There are so many different ways that this comes together, but once you have that understanding and you move the needle a little bit every day, then you're gonna start really seeing that progress. I don't see anybody who goes and spends eight hours at a workshop and then comes out of a genius at whatever they were learning in the workshop. It takes time, it takes practice, and it takes consistent effort. And so if you're working on this day after day after day after day after day, going to build up your fitness in that area to the point where you can actually without really thinking go and do the thing that you need to do. And so I really really encourage you to go learn something new every day. Now a lot of people you know you in particular may be wondering okay well what How do I know what to learn? How do I know what to pick up? How do I know what matters? Well, what you need to do is you need to figure out where you're headed, right? And I do this, I do this with the podcast business, I do this with, Ruby is what I'm currently contracting in, right? So I'll do this in Ruby, do this in some other areas, but what I do is I sit down and I say, okay, what do I need to know in order to be able to do what I want to do, right? So for podcasting, it's, okay, well, what do I need to learn in order to grow the podcast, right? need to learn in order to put together a decent sponsorship package or what do I need to learn in order to put together the meetups right and so then I'll say okay well I need to learn how to host the meetups or I need to learn how to use this particular tool or I need to learn you get the idea right so so for you it may be I need to learn how to do this thing in Visual Studio Code or Emacs or Vim or whatever you're using to add to your code right I need to learn You know, right? You could learn a new keyboard shortcut every day. Or if you're doing, I'm recording this initially on Adventures in Angular and I'll probably record or re-record it for top end devs. But you know, for Angular, right? It's I need to learn the operators for, oh, what's a library? Somebody's screaming it at me right now. I know it. Anyway, so you know, you. you know maybe you need to learn those or maybe you need to learn uh... more about nx right and and the different tools that it gives you or you need to learn more about ng rx and some of the stuff that's built into that. So you can do your state management crap. Or maybe you just need to learn some of the fundamentals. It's like, what else can I do with a component? What kinds of components are there? Okay, I'm gonna learn the fundamentals of that and then I'll break that down into this component has these ideas around it and so I'm gonna go and experiment with those. And so you go out and you learn it and you fiddle with it. And then maybe you branch off and you say, you know what? I'm gonna go do reaction. fundamentals today just you know just to see what's there or view fundamentals or you know I'm gonna go play with a backend system that's different from what I've done right so maybe you go pick up Laravel or Rails or you know you know you've been doing Express forever or I'm gonna learn how to make Angular talk nicely with Amazon AWS Lambdas right or you know I'm gonna learn how to deploy my Angular app in a Docker container right and so you start figuring this out because it's gonna toward what you need to be able to ultimately do in order to get to the position you want to be in. Now some of the things that some people are going to want to do are you're going to want to get a better job, right? So you go and you go look at the companies that you think you might wanna work for, you see what they're doing and you learn that stuff, right? Or you go talk to your friends who are level or two ahead of you, figure out what they know that you don't, go learn that stuff, right? And so then you can get a level or two up, right? You can go look at the conferences and say, well, this is the latest and greatest, you know, leading or bleeding edge stuff. And so I'm going to go learn more in depth the stuff that they talked about in the talks because the talks are half hour to an hour and they typically can't cover everything. They can't teach you all the things. They usually are enough to get you the gist of the idea and point you in the right direction, right? Which means that there's a few hours worth of work if you really want to deeply understand in order to go learn, right? But it's those kinds of things, right? Maybe you decide that your best career move next is to write a blog, right? So you go and you pick up skills on blogging. Or you're gonna go do a podcast, so you go pick up skills on podcasting, right? Okay, how do I host it? How do I, you know, what equipment do I need kind of thing, right? How do I set it up? What matters, what doesn't, right? And so you go watch some of the videos there, watch some of the videos at podcastplaybook.com. You know, all this stuff, again, it's just, it's stuff that, you know, step by step is gonna move the needle to get you where you wanna go. None of this stuff comes all at once, altogether, okay? So you have to go pick it up a piece at a time. Now yeah, sometimes you can sit down, you can do focus learning for a few hours and you can move things pretty quickly. But my experience is the thing that really keeps things, to the point where you're retaining the knowledge, you're really getting there is when you do it every day. And then, kind of connected to that is committing code every day, right? And I'm not talking about at work, right? Commit code related to the stuff you're learning, right? And so, yeah, if you're learning some of the people skills or some of the self-promotion skills or some of the media skills, maybe you're committing code to something else. But, you know, do it to your side project. You know, make sure that you get that mark, that commit on your side project every day, right? And that way what you're doing is you're moving the needle in a way that really helps you level up and get what you need and be learning the things that you need to learn. And this is kind of your, you know, your practice time, right? This is when you get out and you get your reps in, in order to, you know. up your game and get what you need to get, right? And then the other thing you can do, I mean there are other places you can learn stuff, right? So there are meetups. If you don't have a meetup, I am working on putting together monthly meetups for the different communities out there that we serve. So there will be an Angular meetup. You know, if there is a local one, go to it, right? And then find opportunities to talk to people at the meetups and get to know them, get to know what they're doing, get to know what they're good at. And then you can help each other learn, right? So they may have something on their radar that you've never even heard that's gonna make a difference for you. And so you can go and you can sit down and you can. figure that stuff out. You can get their help figuring it out. You can move the needle that way. Same thing with the conferences. You can do the same thing at conferences. So make sure you're getting out to a conference or putting on online conferences as well. So if you can't make it to NGConf in Salt Lake City, then come and join the fun at one of our online conferences. But those are the things that really seem to make the difference so that you're getting that practice in, you're getting the help, you're getting the coaching, you're getting the reinforcement of all the things that you're trying to learn so that at the end of the day you can be a top 1% developer in Angular. And these are the things that are going to move the needle. I also encourage you to read code. You know, we could talk about reading books, we could talk about how to listen to podcasts, we could talk about, and there are a lot of different areas that we could dive into that I plan on putting on the Top End Devs podcast. But for now, just sit down, figure out, okay, this is where I wanna go. I want to be a developer evangelist at Microsoft. So what do I need to do? Well, they like to pick people who are prolific at blogging and podcasting like John Papa, right? So I'm going to go and I'm going to do what John Papa is doing. So I'm going to go try out the other frameworks. And I'm going to go play with the things he's playing with. And I'm going to go write. And you get the idea. Or maybe it's I want to become a senior developer. OK, well, how much more deeply do you need to know Angular? What kinds of things do you not know about Angular? And then how do you pick them up? Where do you go learn them? And if you get all that stuff figured out, then? you know, off you go, you got it figured out, now on to the next thing, right? And so you can spend a few months picking up those skills so that you can move up to be a senior developer. You know, I want to be a manager, I want to be a team lead. Okay, well what skills do you need for that? You know, I want to do project management and I want to be a scrum master. Okay, well what skills do you need to pick up to do that? And if you can do that and you can apply it on a regular basis, then you're going to show up and you're going to be able to answer a lot of the questions that they have for you in the interview and be able to solve a lot of the problems you have once you get the job because you're doing it every day. So I'm just going to encourage you to go do this. Go find things that you can do every day that are going to level up your stuff. Level up your career, level up your life. And yeah, with that, I think I'm going to just head into PIX. And so for PIX, let me just throw out there topendevs.com slash conferences and topendevs.com slash meetups. Those are both where the meetups and conferences are at. The conferences. do cost money, the meetups don't. They're gonna be free forever for everybody. I'm looking to find people to sponsor them, so if you think your company may want to sponsor, no, we're not buying pizza, but it's a great place to get in front of folks and say, hey, we're hiring, right? Or, hey, we've got this awesome thing that you ought to check out or try out, right? And if you want to jump in and join the fun, then great, right? The meetups and the conferences are both also going to have kind of virtual tables where you can sit down and you can have a video chat with whoever else is at the table. So I really do want to kind of foster this community of people who want to talk to each other. We also have a Slack channel, and if you go just sign up for Top End Devs, you don't have to pay. It'll show you the Slack channel in there. You can just join it. I usually do a board game pick. And I'm trying to think, because we played some board games on vacation this last week. So let me pick some stuff around the vacation and I'll jump in and I'll actually pick the board game. So while I was on vacation, we went to Nauvoo, Illinois. Now, if you don't know where Nauvoo is, it's right on the Mississippi River. We actually stayed in Hamilton, Illinois, and then drove up to Nauvoo. Now, Nauvoo is where a whole bunch of my ancestors who joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints very early on in like the 1800s lived. before the people in Illinois actually chased him out and they crossed the plains to Salt Lake City. And so I, you know, a lot of the rest of my ancestry after that, you know, lived here in Utah and, you know, settled here with the other members of the church. So it was really, it was really cool because, you know, we got to go and see kind of what it was like to be there, you know, 150 plus years ago. and they had some pageants which are effectively kind of musical plays that explain the history of the place. It was a ton of fun. If you want to go learn more about that kind of history, I highly highly recommend it. It was awesome. And even if you're not so much into like the church's history, you'll pick up some of that at some of these tours, but you kind of get to walk through the houses and see what it was like to live in them. work in them, they also have demonstrations on like wagon building and wheel riding, they have a blacksmith shop, they have a brick shop, they have, what else did we see, printing. So it was really great, you know, so you get to go and kind of see how they use the old time printing presses, and so yeah, if you're into all that, then it's definitely worth the trip. You know, we went to the temple as well, the Nauvoo Temple. But yeah, it was awesome. Great trip. So I'm going to pick Nauvoo, and that's N-A-U-V-O-O, Illinois. I'm also gonna pick, so when we drove out there, I have a little doodad in my car, and I'll have to look it up and get the link for the show notes, but what it is, is it's an OBD2 scanner. Now, if you're sitting here saying, I have no idea what you're talking about, Chuck. OBD2 is the protocol they use to get the errors and readings off of your car. And my car, We got out there and it was giving an error code. I was like, okay, what did we do, right? And so I put it on there and it turns out that we were getting a exhaust feedback sensor error. And so I put some of the Lucas engine treatment in it. You can get it at the auto parts store. And then the other thing that I found is that if you leave the gas cap off, it'll cause that. But that wasn't my problem. The gas cap was on. As far as I know, it was tight. But I put that engine treatment in there, cleared the code and it was gone and didn't come back after we left. So, you know, driving all the way across Nebraska, Iowa and Colorado and half of Utah. you know, coming back. So anyway, so I'm going to pick the Lucas engine treatment. I'm also going to pick that little OBD2 doodad that I have. I call it a doodad. So typically when you use one of those tools, like if you go into the auto parts store, they'll let you borrow one and read the codes off your car. There's has this big fat plug on it that has this big fat cord on it that goes to this little device that gives you the code number. Mine It has a little Wi-Fi hotspot built into it. So you plug it in, it gets powered off of the plug in the car, the OBD2 port, not the power plug. So it gets power off of that, generates the Wi-Fi signal, you join the Wi-Fi for the OBD2 tool. which means that you can't use internet over your wifi while you're connected to it. But then you just open the OBD2 app and it'll tell you what's going on with your car. And so it's really convenient because it's just this tiny little thing. And it's probably one of the greatest things I ever bought for working with my car. So I really love that tool. It's awesome. I got it on Amazon. I don't remember how much it costs, but I don't remember it being that expensive. I think it was 20 or 30 bucks. And some of those OBD2 tools that you buy, store like a hundred bucks. So you know it was cheap it was and it's really convenient so I'm gonna pick that. The only problem I ever have with it is when I forget and I leave it plugged in it'll hijack my phone and my phone will automatically join its Wi-Fi and then it won't be able to connect to the internet. But anyway but I'm really happy about that. The drive out was great, the drive out back was great. We have this basket thing that goes on the trailer, connector on our car, and that worked really great too. So we put all our luggage on the back of that, because I have a car that will drive eight people in seats, has a tiny trunk area, but I have five kids, so there were seven of us in the car. So, you know, we couldn't fit everything in the car. Loading a basket on top of the car sucks. So, putting it on the back worked out really well. So, I'm gonna pick that as well. I'm trying to think what else made things easier. Oh, there's this plug thing that I got on Amazon as well for the car and it has, so it's like the little cigarette lighter plug. that nobody uses to light their cigarettes anymore, because I don't know. Anyway, so I bought this little box and it has like four USB ports on it and then it has three of the cigarette lighter plugs on it. And... So what that means is that in the front of our car where we have one port, now we have three ports and four USB plugs where we could charge stuff off of the car while it was running. And that worked out so nicely because we could plug in everybody's stuff. You know, my six-year-old had to keep passing her iPad up to get charged, but otherwise it worked fine. And then the last thing is I went over to Best Buy and I bought these, uh, uh, phone holder mount things, um, at Best Buy, and I'll put a link to those in the show notes as well. But the nice thing is, is that, um, I have the iPhone 13, so does my wife, um... which means it has the inductive charging. So as long as you're close enough to the charging thingy, it'll charge your phone up, you know, without having to plug it into anything. And it has that built in, so we just plugged in the phone holder. She has a little ring on the back of hers, it's kind of like a pop socket, that makes it just a little bit too far away from that inductive charging to work. So she just plugged in her phone, you know, through the port on the bottom. But my phone, I just pop it in that thing and it charged. It was awesome. So anyway, I'm gonna pick all those. As far as games go, we played a few games. The one game that I think we played a couple of times was Harry Potter Paralysed Pursuit, I think is what it's called. I'll put a link to it in the show notes as well. But it... Effectively what you have is everybody has their own board and you roll dice and you fill up the boards You can use different abilities to distract capture Beast get cards. I'm trying to think what they all were but anyway, you're trying to capture all the escaped beasts as characters from the Fantastic Beasts Harry Potter series and if you If you manage to do that, then you win, right? You capture all the beasts and they're trying to escape and they attack you and stuff like that. So it's a cooperative game. And I tend to not like cooperative games. This one had enough unique pieces to where it was fun. And so I really enjoyed that. So I'm gonna pick that. as the game that I'm picking and board game geek. I forgot to pull that up. Alright, so Fantastic Beasts, Perilous Pursuit. Came out 2018, has a weight of 1.38. So, yeah, like I said, not terribly involved. I think they might have had an expansion in it, I can't remember. I don't know if it has an expansion, but anyway, that's the idea. So, it was awesome, really enjoyed it. So anyway, that's pretty much. my picks and yeah it's simple enough to where the kids can play it too. It says age 8 plus and the community kind of rates it at a 10 plus. Either way, my kids could definitely pick it up, I think. And so anyway, it was a fun game. So that's pretty much it. That's all I've got. So I'm going to go ahead and wrap it up here. But yeah, until next time, Max out.